This happened on Obama's watch:US destroyer backup in East China Sea

U.S., Chinese warships come dangerously close

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/13/politics/us-china-confrontation/

So, This thread is about pinning warships' standoff on a president that really has no control on such incidents?

NOT QUITE. As we are all aware of, it is President Obama who DELIBERATELY reinforced the US presence in Asia-Pacific region... to shift strategic focus... for no good reason, just like Syria, like his apology tour, like his removal of Mubarak.

Only problem is... the Chinese aren't like Syrians or Egyptians... not even close, they are too, trying to show some muscles, and guess what... they have some muscles to be shown.

And a US destroyer just conceded. Boy oh boy that's humiliating. You know what's worse? The Chinese just scored, big time.

Folks, you often fear there would be one day, America would fall or at least, no longer be #1. I'm here to confirm ya this is happening. It's just that it doesn't really take 1 day... not that short. It takes 8 years and one clueless, inept president.

 

I don't think this says anything as big as you think. The US ship backed down, but what do you want them to do? Just showing up and being there is a bigger statement than anything that could have happened between the forces on scene.
I try to make sense of where we stand right now. In a recent summary by a General who was/is running things in Afghanistan, he said that we're tired right now. We *could* withstand another protracted conflict, but the domestic toll would be much more apparent.
As for "something big" between us and China, I don't think either side could deal with it at all well, but China would deal with it less well, because we have such overwhelming materiel superiority. If they want to play games at sea, we have 10 more nuclear carrier battle groups than they do, with 3 more under construction. We have the 3 largest and most well equipped air forces on earth.
I think the current American regime is doing a whole lot under cover, and some that is not so concealed. Look at the new NSA data center in Utah. The biggest on earth, designed to eavesdrop on all earth. I'm more inclined to believe that some very big things are going to become clear in the nearing future that will have very little appeal to anyone but the American ruling class.

 

The thing about this is it all goes back to the Asian summit he convened, and then didn't show up for. The purpose of this, was his grand "Asia pivot", where the US was supposed to assert its support for our allies in the face of an expanding superpower. The Chinese interpreted this as weakness... and a lack of resolve. The rest of the world watches what our leadership does, without the prism of democrats vs republican spin and motivation. The Chinese believe this president is a paper tiger, and they are right.

They will continue to humiliate us... because they can.

I believe that this is a miscalculation on their part... because this president has a wicked passive aggressive streak, and is prone to making stupid and dangerous decisions. He is a vindictive little prat... playing with chess pieces.

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It isn't "their turf". They have never had control of this area.

What do you know about Poland?

 

Then don't get so close. Or if you wanna play it rough, play it all the way through. Now we are making a butt out ourselves. And this make the Japanese start to question if US is that reliable.

Those carrier groups exist for a reason, you can just deploy them all in one theater while exposing all our other bases to hostile nations?

Fo' Sho'!

The ruling class want money, not really the war or a huge phallic symbol.

 

You're confusing strategy and tactics. You have no grasp of the strategy behind the Pacific pivot based on your post, and you don't make a distinction between the strategy and the tactical decision of the warship captain to avoid a collision. By the way, the Cowpens is a cruiser, not a destroyer.

Strategically speaking, the Pacific pivot is a sound decision. I'll just use the Navy as the core example, since they are the United States' main power projection option, and their pivot has been the most questioned and misunderstood. There was a damn good reason for a Pacific pivot, and that's because there's more needing monitored in the Pacific.

The United States Navy operates in several geographically-delineated "Fleet" Areas of Responsibility. Each AOR is responsible for a different area As the world's geopolitical climate has changed, the United States has needed to adapt. During the Cold War, the United States had to concentrate on the Atlantic AORs to ensure that if the Cold War turned hot, we would be able to reinforce our European allies. Despite the Pacific Fleet needing to cover vastly more sea-space than the Atlantic Fleet, it was decided to concentrate on the Atlantic because if we were to do a geographically-delineated split the ships may not be where they were most likely needed. During the Cold War, our main focus was on the Atlantic because we would have needed to support NATO should the Cold War have turned hot. ReForGer would have been a massacre had we not concentrated resources in the Atlantic, because the Soviets would have thrown all of their submarines and bombers against the convoys heading for Europe.

Now that the Soviet Union is dissolved, their main successor state of Russia has not been able to keep their Navy up to snuff. Several of their submarines that, in a Third Battle of the Atlantic would have been deployed to shut down the sea-lines of communication between North America and Europe, now sit tethered to the pier where they basically rot. So few of the Russian Navy's warships are in even a good enough condition that it is embarrassing. When their only carrier, the Kuznetsov made a deployment, it made world news due to its rarity.

To not do the Pacific Pivot would be to ignore geopolitics. China has modernized its naval forces quite impressively, and with that, they have begun flexing their muscles. Under the previous system, we didn't have much in the way of resources in the Pacific to cover what all needed to be covered. Before, we had, I believe four or five carriers based in the Pacific, of which, at least one was always in some sort of maintenance. Another carrier would be covering Fifth Fleet in the Middle East, which would often have a carrier from both the Atlantic and Pacific in the AOR because of the volatility of the region. That left two carriers to monitor three PLA Navy fleets, the North Koreans, and the rest of the Indian and Pacific Oceans. We have several allies in the region, many of whom we have mutual-defense treaty obligations with as well. Extra carriers would be a very smart thing to do for the area. The Atlantic has quieted down to the point that it is rare to have a Carrier Battle Group deployed to the Atlantic except for training missions or as transit to another AOR.

Tactically speaking, President Obama, who was likely in Washington, DC, had zero influence or control of a destroyer halfway across the world taking drastic action to avoid a collision that would have caused likely severe damage if not injuries or fatalities to both sides and could have led to a diplomatic incident. To suggest that the cruiser's Commanding Officer willfully risk a collision just to prove a point is frankly stupid.

 

Nothing really.

What do you know about Czechoslovakia?

 

Been there. Rough seas on land but usually all is calm in the SoChin Sea...

[video=youtube;VIKMPIFJkzk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk[/video]

 

Not really.
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=76402

Oh and, are you insinuating what I think you are?

Except they didn't tell us "not to come", they can't tell us what to do in high waters as much as we can't tell them what to do. They gave us an angry stare and we backed down like a little bee sting.

C'mon, let's take it into perspective, it's not the fault of the military, it's really bad, stupid idiotic strategic decision. Some one fudged up way up there.

Democrats... you have them in the office and the military is doomed to suffer. LBJ, Carter...

 

So the alternative is to ram the other ship or open fire? A diplomats nightmare that would be. how is this an example of Obama's ineptitude?

Can we say we haven't seen this coming? As Chinese power has grown over the years the USA has waned.

 

I suspect that the commander of the Cowpens would disagree with your Monday morning quarterbacking.

The Chinese scored? Scored what?

I know you want America to fail so you can blame it on Obama.

But its not happening.

 

How about I post an account that is not quite so hopeful of disaster for America...

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/chinese-warship-nearly-collided-with-uss-cowpens-1.257478

WASHINGTON – On Dec. 5, a Chinese warship nearly collided with a U.S. Navy guided missile cruiser, according to U.S. Pacific Fleet.

“While lawfully operating in international waters in the South China Sea, USS Cowpens (CG 63) and a PLA Navy vessel had an encounter that required maneuvering to avoid a collision. This incident underscores the need to ensure the highest standards of professional seamanship, including communications between vessels, to mitigate the risk of an unintended incident or mishap,” PACFLT said in a statement.

A U.S. military official confirmed the incident and said the PLA ship tried to get the Cowpens to stop in international waters. No shots were fired, according to the official, who asked not to be identified.

Another U.S. military official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, told Stars and Stripes that the incident was ultimately resolved through ship-to-ship communications via radio between the Cowpens and a Chinese aircraft carrier in the vicinity. The official said that at some point there was direct communication between the Cowpens and the Chinese vessel that was harassing it, but the official was unaware of what was said during the exchange.

"The U.S. has raised this issue at a high level with the Chinese government," a State Department spokesperson said in an email to Stars and Stripes.

It is unclear why the Chinese vessel wanted the Cowpens to stop.

“I don’t know the intent of the guy driving that PLA ship,” one of the officials said. “I just know that he was moving to impede and harass the Cowpens. I mean, from my perspective, having him stop in the middle of the South China Sea is kind of dumb … [The Chinese saying] ‘Go away, get out of here’ [would make more sense]. But ‘stop’ doesn’t really do anything because all that does is just maintain the status quo.”

According to the OP, this is means the end of the U.S. Navy.......lol

 

This is all about China and Japan fighting over a group of islands, or should I say the water around those islands that has a big deposit of oil under them. China is trying to claim them as their own, so is Japan. China is flexing their muscle to show they have control of that waterway and Japan is expecting the U.S. to keep that passage open. It puts us in a spot as we have a treaty to protect Japan. It seems the Philippians also has a claim near those island that China is also muscling in on. This could get to be a very dangerous situation.

 

Shhhhh.... It's Bush's fault, his whole with us or against us speil come home to roost. No worries, the talking points will soon reflect such, the second coming will not be blamed, although who would have guessed it was actually Groucho instead of Karl...

 

Waring, history reminder....warning, warning facts are coming about things we know and not postulations.

Anyone remember this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

Our fumbles with dealing with China has extended from Republican presidents to Democrat presidents. As to why they are doing what they are doing, well I'm not too sure because I don't have access to classified information therefore to act like I know that they are doing things with no plan or no sane plane is beyond a smart move. Whatever is going on you best hope cooler heads prevail.

Also, American hasn't been number one for awhile and it has more to do with economy. China has been number one for awhile now. That's thanks to Republicans and Democrats alike. China has been building it's military up for decades and has eclipsed ours in numbers for a long time. Now they've almost caught up technologically. Now they are flexing. Militarily they are number one now as well. This has been a long time coming and it would be common knowledge if people were paying attention.

 

"We" as in US and Australia right?

Glad to see some aussies still on our side. But wait... who knows what would happen once China became really, really powerful. You aussies don't know squat and you still root for Obozo. He's bad news. Bad news I tell ya.

 

Obama sent our fleets there to show who's the alpha male. And a navy vessel just chickened out. (Possibly under Obama's , or his goons' order of not provoking the Chinese) Is there anything more ta say?

The Chinese media must be getting quite a kick out of it right now...

 

IT means Bamaboy messed up again, his diplomatic move blew up in his face once more.

What would happen had this occurred under Reagan? Between US and USSR?

Oh wait, how forgetful I was, what happened under Bush? There WAS a collision.

 

So the smart move should be reducing our military presence in that region, not to increase! Japanese people are pretty westernized, they think quite like us, those who were behind all this island disputes are only a handful of far-right Emperor-hailing nationalists who think they can take cover behind our military shield. We should make it clear that it's a delusion, we don't want any part of that...

But nooooo, Obama doesn't think so, he ... well I don't know WTF he wants. He got a really good nose for making really, really bad decisions.

 

Yeah I love reading these posts. Because taking direct military action on a chinese vessel would be nearly an open declaration of war.

I love how people seem to think what they see in movies is real. We can't withstand another war, we don't want one, and there is no reason to start one over jockeying for position in international waters.

 

This thread makes it abundantly clear that a consuming hatred for the President of the United States is conducive neither to comprehending the exigencies of foreign policy nor rational thinking in general.

Kibitzers can mewl that surrendering to road rage at sea is the proper behaviour, but there are other, far more sensible responses.

These sorts of incidents are best not left to hot-headed folks whose compulsion is to strut whenever the opportunity arises.

The consequences of such self-indulgence is far too ominous.

 

Yes, because a collision along with the very real possibility of loss of life as a result, is preferable to a slightly bruised ego? WTF is wrong with you people?

 

Ah I just love it when Conservatives show their true colors by calling a 50 year old black man 'boy'.

I am still trying to figure out what Conservatives prefer- that the United States just ignore China? Or that the Cowpens should have plowed into this Chinese ship?

I think its pretty obvious that you just want to complain about this 50 year old black man you call 'boy'

Frankly I don't know what would have happened under Reagan- but again the choice was pretty much evasion or collision or combat- I think since we don't actually want to go to war right now that evasion was the reasonable response that protected both American interests and lives.

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'chickened out'

What would you have done if you were the commander of the Cowpens?