God committed genocide because giving humans free will backfired on him.

I spoke not about free decisions. I spoke about the difference between decisions and memory. I'm for example convinced a world without world war 1 was once possible - but one or more - maybe even hundred of millions of people - did not trust in god and did do what god suggested them to do. Maybe the most people on earth did not even try to hear what god said. That's why we are living now in a world where the manmade catastrophe World War 1 erased Europe as a very colorful place with an unbelievable high amount of different dialects and languages, cultures and societies - and the world of the uniforms started to replace the world of the unicorns. We are not able to remember what now would happen if this worlds would not be dead - nevertheless the worlds we don't remember, the worlds we are not able to remember because we don't speak their languages any longer, are not really dead - this worlds live still in god and one day I will visit them all after my own death. That's my decision now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUT6H2m00Rs

 

Hitler murdered no one - Hitler made others to murderers.

You should not try to ask a German wether Germany was "a chrIstian nation" under Hitler - or before Hitler - or after Hitler. He could die on laughter. Since Germany is a nation it was never "a christian nation". It's by the way indeed in this way that the word "deutsch" (german) is nearly the opposit of the expression "nation", becaue everyone is a German in this "definition" (the german tradition) who is able to speak german - completly independent what's the nationality of someone or what's the ethnic group he belongs to: and what the language "german" is, is a very wide spectrum too. English for example belongs to the group of german languages - "Angeln" and "Sachsen" came from Germany, that's why we are often calling Brits "Anglo-Saxons" and Americans "Anglo-Americans".

¿Did he? He used from time to time some few sentences where someone - who has absolutelly no idea about the christian religion - could perhaps confuse something what he said with the christian religion. But you need really a lot of fantasy or a lot of schnaps to see in anything what Hitler said a christian message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCxURbI2WVE

 

Which fails to contradict the premise of me argument.

Try again.

 

Might want to brush up on the law there guy.

Ordering murder is the same as committing it in every court on the planet.

So, Germany was not and is not a "christian" nation?
That 61% of Germans who call themselves christian is what? an census anomoly?

the majority of the german peoples were and are Christian. You remember a guy named Luther?

Sorry, but that is nonsense.
He REPEATEDLY stated in one fashion or another that he was doing "gods work" in eliminating the jews. The fact that this kind of crap was the most prevalent of his religious references, does not make it any less a lame and disgusting justification for mass murder. It wasn't his sole justification as the mountains of nazi propaganda can attest to, but it was an angle that he used.

But the really sad part is that a lot of German's bought into the idea that it was gods work. My father was born and raised in Potsdam until 1938 when his JEWISH father was arrested. His mother was an excommunicated catholic but was able to bribe his way out of prison AND out of Germany. I have any number of first hand stories about what was going on from my fathers family. (as it happens they moved to london, just in time for the blitz).

 

Mine were in Hong Kong for the Japanese invasion. Rough times.

 

What?

Hitler gave someone the order to murder him and the man fullfilled this order. So why do you think you said something what makes sense? What "every court on the planet" would say was for Hitler completly uninteresting. He murdered no one - not even himselve - he made others to murderers. ... Oh now I understand what's your problem - you are thinking this is more harmless. It is not more harmless. A murdered person is dead - bad luck somehow - but the murderer is in danger to go forever into hell. For a devil it's much more interesting to make someone to a murderer.

Since Napoleon conquered the holy roman empire of german(="united") nation and the following secularisation more then 200 years ago I don't think it makes sense speak from a christian nation in case of Germany. And before Germany was not a nation at all - and also not very christian.

Someone could see it in this way - but we Germans don't do so. I'm sure nearly every German would be very astonisjed or would become cynical or sarcastic if someone would call Germany a christian nation - if he would understand at all what someme likes ot say with the words "christian nation".

Lex Luther or Martin Luther or Martin Luther King? Do you remember the 30 years war some long decades later? Not? - no wonder!

?

Hitler had no religious motivation. And he said not what you say here. Give me the concrete source where Hitler said he is doing "gods work" in eliminating the Jews. But even if you would find such a sentence - in the millions of sentences he spoke - every idiot knows that not bishops were entering and leaving his heaqduarters continously. Soldiers, SS and leading nazis didiv do so. And the leading Nazis and teh members of the SS did not marry in a christian waq for example. So why is anyon thsinkgin they have something to do with the christian religion?

Good grieve - slowly you start to sound like Hitler himselve.

You don't understand anything about Hitler and his "third empire" if you like to see this as a movement of Christians.

Only because you are repeating continously something it becomes not true. In my area here in Germany for example nearly 50% of all priests of the catholic church were arrested in concentrations camps. The Nazis were more than only respectless in case of priests.

Potsdam? ... 1938? ... I don't know the situation there ... But what has the arrest of your grandfather to do with Christians? And why had it nothing to do with Christians that your mother was able to save your grandfather? If no one ever said anything about this categories to you when he told you something about the story - why do you think suddenly that this was the important point of view in those days? Did people after church services start to attack Jews or anyone else? For sure not. All steps in case of the Holocaust were planned top -> down in gigantic dimensions from the Nazis.

Blitz? London? ... ah - the attacks of the german air force in London. Completly senseless waste of avgas. If they had bombed Berlin instead of London the result would had been not very different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0761BhZhats

 

OUCH!!!

 

wow.

I will continue to attribute our disconnect in communicating to the fact that english is not your first language.

That being said. I shall re-iterate my points more conscisely so perhaps you can understand what I am actually saying.

1. By ordering the execution of millions of people (not just jews) Hitler was a murderer just as surely as he pulled the trigger or dropped the xyklon pellets.

2. Hitler was raised a catholic and as such RECOGNIZED that he could appeal to a particular constituency by claiming to be doing god the almighty's work. His belief is irrelevant to his statements.

3. Germany is a euro-christian nation in the sense that the majority of the population is christian and that the christian religion has been a major (at times predominant) influence on virtually every aspect of its culture.

4. I did not nor am not in anyway attempting to equate nazism with christianity.

5. Are you sufficiently politically sophisticated that you can comprehend a politician tailoring his messages to distinct constituencies? Why are you having such a hard time understanding that Hilter engaged in this practical and time worn strategy?

6. The fact that the nazi's arrested quite a number of priests does not in anyway mean that a significant % of german christians did not buy into his message - although the "almighty's work" was not the motivation for their embrace of nazi policies, merely a soothing justification they could live with.

7. Actually the story of my grandparents has a lot to do with christians and jews although the villian in it was the evil nazis. Their families were torn apart, on either side of the conflict. almost the entire jewish side of the family was wiped out. Many on the christian side were Nazis, not simply members of the wehrmacht.
The final solution was top down, but it was fed by the willingness of a number of germans to actively participate and a great many more who chose to ignore what was happening right in front of them.

8. You are correct since Berlin was bombed continually from 40 onward and that didn't change anything either.

 

I grew up hating the Japanese, but in the USA, I had a college classmate
from Japan.

I forced myself to go sit beside her, and try to make friends. One of the best things i ever did, she is such a lovely lady.

Her grandfather served in Manchuria, and some how survived the war.

That was then, this is now.

 

Your argument is a phony one. You are claiming that two things cannot exist at the same time....you lose.

 

Your opinion - not my opinion. I never would call Germany a christian nation - no one here in Germany would do so. And to try to call Nazis Christians is in my ears nothing else than an evil joke.

Hui ui ui ui uihhh

A big part of the jewish members of my family were also murdered here in my country from Nazis.

The "Wehrmacht" (=defense force) is only an expression for the german army.

Was your jewish grandfather not a German? Were your father and your mother not Germans?

Whatever. I don't see the point that Atheists saved your family while Christians tried to murder them. Your hate against Christians explains nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7aM4VPVAHc

 

Christians constantly do that when it comes to pol pot and stalin but anything done bad by christians they claim "well there no 'real' christians"

 

Example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxe14bA8og

 

You are yet to demonstrate how free will and Omnipotense/Omnipresence can exist at the same time.

You fail, along with every Christian/theist on this board.

 

Do you know what time is, how it works? if not i dont think you can legitimately say
that the assumed all powerful god who made time in the first place somehow lacks the capacity to see all of it at once.

The bible is even quite specific saying that god doesnt 'do" time as we do.

Presumably god would be able to see all events at any point in time, or all of them at once.. not sure how that would look! Sounds blurry.

Regardless, once you've assumed a god, there is a simple answer to how he can know without predestining.

..........................................................................................................................................

"just because i find your reasoning silly, doesnt mean I think you are silly, or, not always"

 

Think of it this way:

You program a computer to think for itself and make it's own decisions. But, you have a print out detailing every decision it will make and when. You know this before you even turn the computer on.

The same idea works with a deity that knows all. Christians like to pretend that god is all powerful and all knowing, yet, still want free will as a scape goat to apologetically explain away the Problem of Evil. There are plenty of Bible verses that support my argument of predetermination on this particular argument, which completely wipes away the message of the Bible. From the Garden of Eden, to the supposed Resurrection.

It is just a minefield. They cannot answer the simplest of questions because they know the two do not play together.

 

All i did was assume things like magic, and here you want to be logical.

In the shourd thread, I pointed out that the authenticity can be haggled on details like
is that really blood and if so blah blah, or...

If the authenticity of jesus himself hinges on whether he said the things they say he did then, lets look at the flood, which he is said to have verified.

Ok either he was a humbug, or, the people who wrote about him, or both. Where does that leave the "shroud"?

Back to the woo woo of determining if its type AB blood and shows signs of torture, that is if it is blood.

Simple basic questions are not what any fundamentalist wants to deal with, nor can they.

 

doesn't change the facts. apparently you are not familiar with the history of the church in europe.

I do not call nazis christians. I called hitler a christian, which he was in childhood. He later crafted some of his propganda and messaging to his "christian" constituency.

extremely insightful and informative.

Regrettably we share that particular aspect of our family histories with many millions.

Now don't be disengenuous. I said wehrmacht instead of Nazi do differentiate between the evil sick bastards and the average patriotic german who was willing to die to defend his nation and wasn't a nazi at all.
We use the term in our family to ensure no confusion.

Not according to the Nazis. I find your argument here to be ridiculous. Are you suggesting that there weren't lots of germans who were not nazis who actively supported them? or that there were not millions of otherwise decent people who chose to ignore what was going on?

Huh? the old "hate" accusation. Absolutely nothing I have posted could be construed as hatred against christians or Germans for that matter.

OTOH,I freely admit to being a bigot - I despise, hate, abhor and detest Nazis and today's neo-nazis.

 

I don't know what kind of cliches are behind your fantasy-stories - but I think I'm able to live very comfortable without understanding you only a lttle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-flCMMndcE0

 

Hahaha! You have yet to show where God is described using such terms. You fail all by yourself.

 

LOL! So you are making phony claims now? Where does it say that God "programs" people like a computer? Also where are these verses you claim that support what you are saying? If they did you would post them but your fear of looking foolish is holding you back. Hahahaha!

 

So now we have God programming people and knowing something prevents actions....hahahaha! The hits just keep on coming.

 

What you say here made no sense with my words before - so maybe that was the reason why I forgot to answer.

I hope you agree that the expansion of the universe (from all points in all directions so every point is always in the middle and nowhere is a border or an outside) can also be seen that the universe is caused from a first cause (within this nothing what was the universe [not] in this moment "before"). But a first cause is causeless - so a first cause is not determined. We Christians can think in lots of different ways - not only in causes: For example: predestination, chaotic structures or karma or "(*)(*)(*)(*) happens" or ... we believe even that god is also present in his word of creation: Jesus lives. He is preparing a home for us. And he has lots of people who are ready to help him. So why should we not get a nice home in heaven? Every way is a way of decisions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5hHxZeuHqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILKEjenGCU8

 

Jeremiah 1:5.

Read your book!

 

you don't understand the term cliche, nor it seems have the ability to actually parse reality from fantasy.

But I certainly do understand contemporary Germans wishing to view the 20th century history of their nation to view it thru some heavy filters. Its easy to surmise that you are at least two, more likely three generations removed from the war.