The nonsense of best tank in world

Talk to my trophy because my ears ain't listening..
This is the 6" cup I won for topping my first computer wargame ladder in 2003 at the Rugged Defense Club, and I've been topping other leagues too in the 14 years since then.
It sits on the coffee table in the middle of my living room, carefully positioned so that it's the first thing guests see when they arrive, and I keep steering the conversation towards it during the course of the evening..-

 

I guess I shouldn't expect a theist to understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

 

Since you bring God into it, check it..--
God said- "Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..they come from faraway lands..to destroy the whole country..and destroy the sinners within it" (Isaiah ch 13)




US troops after capturing Baghdad International Airport, 2003-

 

There are many tiers of effectiveness when it comes to military capability. Because so much of the upper tiers rely on politics, coordination and money, when something evens the playing field to one-on-one confrontations, I guess the awakening can be rude.

 

I think the world order does play a significant role in my conclusion regarding tanks' usefulness. There isn't as much likelihood of a large scale ground confrontation with neutral air power nowadays. It seems that while my logic has not been respected much in our conversation, that it is the logic driving modern application of tanks.

I was under the impression that infantry were not equipped to assault tanks until specialized equipment hit the battlefield. Still, a tank presents a significant challenge to infantry alone. A tank deployment of the class the US sees to certainly presents a problem for conventional infantry. They should hide, run or surrender in most cases.

Maybe your entire judgement of battlefield conditions is based on planes coming as close as possible to their targets, making them vulnerable to arms like stingers. I want to say 9-12k feet for a fighter/bomber working tanks in a theater with no robust SAM cover. Sophisticated SAMs are the only thing that could inspire a plane to fly low down in stinger territory like that. Am I missing something? I don't think a stinger has the sophistication or the warhead to engage a threat like that.

The reason tanks don't have an AD response to jet strikes like what I'm suggesting is because the SAM hardware is big enough to purpose an entire tank. How am I explaining this to a Patriot crewman?

What really deprecates tanks as we know them is crew. As uncrewed hardware on land and air hits the battlefield, their disadvantages and costs only further work them out of the leading edge of the equation.

 

Vlad seems pretty confident that his tanks can do a good job-

 

I can detect your scope or your FLIR from 2500m with a laser anti sniper system today. In Auto mode. Javelin has a filter to counter this detection, but you cant see a thing when the filter is on, you become very short ranged.

The optics are OK on the launch unit, it is 240x2 active scan, which gives you 240x480 pixels.
But the missile seeker is protected by SZn head which is not good for thermal (well it is a cheaper solution) and the seeker is only 64x64 pixels. This is killing image recognition in case of a difficult picture (when something is burning in the background, flashes, explosions, or in hot conditions). So you might see the tank with launch unit, but the missile will not (it does not have to see actually, it has to correlate between hot spots, but still a problem)
For instance, top-down attack on helicopter is unavailable (not that you really need this mode) - Javelin missile seeker will not be able to resolute the target under the rotor blades because the picture changes too fast.
Weeell (to tell the truth), newer had a chance to play with Javelin FLIR channel, so I am theoretical, but theoretically, the real image given with those technical characteristics cannot possibly match the image given in Arma 3. Theoretically . Much more advanced Thermal Image systems that I played with, cannot match the Arma 3 image. Expect more difficulties in reality.

I rather mean smoke screen that block your view and hampers target acquisition and target recognition. And shell shock. And forest burning in the background. For instance Javelin might not be able to differentiate between tank and background for up to an hour per day when the sun heats the background. It simply will not lock.
Naturally, in ARMA 3 we are talking about +20 years from now? Image resolution will be much better. But so will be the Anti Missile defense. There are humogous amount of methods to make a tank stealth in IR, kill the incoming missile, divert it or fool it. Majority of those methods are cheaper than the missile at the moment, right now.
In 20 years from now, their cost will decrease, while missile cost (more advanced) will increase.
So in summarizing. I would say that clever AT missiles are making life of a tank a bit more difficult. But there is absolutely no way they will make tank obsolete. (I mean near 30 years)

And ARMA has nothing to do with tanks. The server allows how many 64 or 100 players? This amount of players will not allow you to simulate a work of a tank platoon. Not enough man to support you, poor organization, not enough targets, no reason to bring the tank into the game except for fun.
And when you bring a solitary Tank to support some weird people who has little understanding of how to work combining your forces with armor, then the tank is dead meat, it does not matter how advanced it is, but you do not need an advanced AT missile to burn it . This part is simulated perfectly ))

 

Thanks for all the points you raised, modern warfare is a complicated business, and there are so many different types of missiles and stuff that make it a huge fascinating subject..
Incidentally there are a surprisingly large number of real-life vids on Youtube and Liveleak showing Syrian rebel AT TOW-operators picking off government tanks like flies at enormous range like sitting ducks, not bad for a missile system that's over 40 years old.
It's been progressively modified over the years of course, but is still wire-guided; the operator simply has to keep the crosshairs on the target, he doesn't need to lock on, and the tank therefore gets no warning that he's being targetted until the missile hits him.
That's my standard method of attack in Arma2/3 with assorted missiles, I fire un-locked so's not to warn him, and simply let the missile fly down the crosshairs. I use it for bunker-busting too.

 

The TOW isn't wide guided anymore. The missiles we've been supplying to the Syrian rebels are the new versions of the TOW that are essentially scaled up Javelins.

 

Tanks and other armored fighting vehicles are increasing needed by fighting in urban areas. Fallujah a case in point, as Bradly's and M1's were needed to blow apart Texas barriers and level fighting positions.

Yes one needs air superiority, but all our great air superiority hasn't been able to root the Taliban or IS, certainly in urban strongholds. Only boots and treads on the ground can do it.

Now, if you want to use nukes or carpet bomb a city like they did in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Hamburg and Dresden---- then ground assets are not as important.

 

Over 60,000 TOW's have been produced over the past 40-odd years, the vast majority are wire-guided, but I don't have the figures for the non-wire-guided version.
PS- Here's a vid that illustrates what I said earlier about how tanks are sitting ducks on todays battlefield, and check the TOW firing at 0:25, you can actually see the two guidance wires streaming out of the tube.

[video=youtube;4gKNc3O1HWM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gKNc3O1HWM[/video]

 

Now how a TOW works. You place the target in the crosshairs and press the button. The launch unit – launches the missile, the question - why the missile stays in the crosshairs? On the rear of the missile there is a xenon lamp, or a IR burner that is facing the FLIR optics of the launch unit. Your launch unit observes this lamp via a FLIR channel and generates commands to the missile, that will keep the missile in the crosshairs (wire or radio – does not matter). Till it hits the target.
Probably you know that, question is how to counter?
You probably remember pics of Russian tanks with two small boxes on the turret directly left and right of the barrel. These are xenon lamps of “Shtora”. Shtora is an ancient soft kill missile system. It has a 0.8 – 0.9 kill probability against TOW. These two lamps, mimic the lamp (including frequency) that is located at the rear of the TOW missile. (it is all a bit more complex, but to keep it simple)
When your launch unit, observes the missile, it will see the Lamp on the back of the missile, and the lamps on the tank. At certain point, your launch unit will not be able to see the difference between these lamps and will generate a command that will tell the Shtora lamp to steer into the crosshairs. This command will be received by the TOW missile and it will steer it away from crosshairs and away from your Launch unit field of view. That is it, the missile is lost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnegxu0Iow
The Shtora is outdated by far, so the TOW missile, but they work.
Now you probably know all this, but above raises another issue. Shtora can operate continuously for 6 hours, it needs cooling. It needs power. It has to be turned ON.
When I assemble a force of 60 tanks, puncture the frontline and start wreaking hell in your rear or head towards a strategic target in your rear that will cripple your frontline troops. Shtora works perfectly, when multiple tanks have it on, your FLIR channel will be blinded (sort of)…
Contrary.
When the Syrians distribute these 60 tanks around their outposts or infantry units, when their tanks work solitary or are simply dug in, they follow the book “how to waste your armor without achieving any goals”.
- Have your tank dug in, so it will loose mobility and two thirds of its value.
- Allow the enemy to rumble around your outpost, so they can find a comfortable launch site.
- Disperse your tanks! Make the supply chain as complicated as possible, do not allow your tanks to have ample supply of fuel or ammo.
- Disperse your tanks, do not allow them to pursue strategic goals
- Be as stable as possible, do not confuse your enemy! People should be kind to each other even at war.
- And you cant keep Shtora ON when stationary for 24x7, it is not designed to operate continuously.
These rules are nothing new absolutely. They wear the same in WW1 in WW2. Tanks should be employed in large numbers as a single unit to achieve strategic goals. If they are dispersed they are wasted.
There is no need in TOW to fight Syrian stupidity, you saw that majority of launches in your film was done against a solitary, stationary armor. Minethrowers will do the same, IED will do the same, artillery will do the same. In your film TOW is not doing anything that cant be achieved by other means. TOW is simply more convenient and in some cases - safe. Now this is an achievement no doubt, TOW is working, it is effective, but please note, it is working against an army, that is virtually throwing their armor from a cliff…
There are multiple new approaches of how to defend against TOW: radar, spectral, reactive, the problem is – that these methods cannot do a thing against stupidity

 

That just means they were firing an older model. The new model TOWs are no longer wire guided. They have an active IR seeker.

And tanks are no more sitting ducks than that TOW crew are. Modern combined arms warfare requires all weapons work in concert with each other.

 

Yes that's why I drum it into my wargaming recruits to- "Fight with your brain first and your weapons second"..

 

I can see that you'd be a very dangerous wargame opponent mate, let me know which games you play and we'll arrange a battle and hopefully I can learn from you..
(Same invitation applies to any other gamers reading this)
Meanwhile I'll have to muddle through as usual, I'm amazed I do so well and get feedback from my opponents like this-
Geordie-"As a player PoorOldSpike is top notch and his file return rate is amongst the best I have encountered..his tactics work"
RocketMan- "PoorOldSpike is great guy to learn tank tactics from with unsurpassed file return times (it is like he is an AI or something with him returning files any time of the night or day).."
MrBadExample- "PoorOldSpike is excellent player, good guy and gets turns out quickly! Highly reccomended .."
Enigma- "PoorOldSpike is great tactician, superb return rate and some really wonderful comments with them too. Well worth playing! Also a great teacher in helping you improve your own gameplay and a really good playtester.."
Fredrock- "PoorOldSpike is interesting Tactician, good player, really great Banter,got to give him a try.."
British Tommy- "PoorOldSpike is a very good tactical player, well worth playing against.."
Von Schwendemann- "POS is excellent player with an outstanding return rate. If you haven't played him you are missing out. Have fun.."
Neubaufahrzeug- "Played twice in mirror mode against POS and he is a fair, competent and fast player. CM is living with such guys - let´s go on.."
Koen- "PoorOldSpike I must admit that you're crazy and something's totally wrong with you but you're honest and straight to the point.."
Mad Russian- "To give PoorOldSpike his due, he does good CM support..Every single time POS and I have played each other he is a grand opponent. His return rate is better than ANYBODY's!!!"
Hirr Leto- "PoorOldSpike is deranged, crazy and full of fight. POS will bring it like no other... tactically sound player and yes, 'very' dangerous with armour.”
Lord Bane quote- "I have been playing the game for many years but have learned quite a bit about the game by reading your fantastic tactical posts."
The Coil- "PoorOldSpike is great when you want to understand the mechanics of the game"
Wardog- "PoorOldSpike you are a tough little f*cker to play against"

Below- me and some of my boys in Armed Assault III-

 

The only wargame I play is Wargame and even then, I wouldn't call it truly realistic. But it does well demonstrate that modern combined arms tactics are necessary. Infantry with anti-tank missiles don't do to
well against an MLRS strike or napalm.

 

If you mean this one, I had it last year but sadly the labels and text were too small to read which was a pity so I lost interest-

[video=youtube;tvFplxcyC5s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvFplxcyC5s&t=916s[/video]

 

Actually, in Vietnam and Iraq (1990-2003) we were facing some of the most air defenses available. And we took some pretty serious casualties in taking them out. Especially in Vietnam, where we were loosing our most advanced bombers and fighters on a regular basis.

In the first part, that is why I mention 73 Easting, where air power played no part at all in the battle. It was entirely a ground tank battle.

For the second, nobody was seriously considering the Iraqi Air Force equipment inferior, they did have some of the best equipment available on the open market.

But the quality and ability of the pilots was seriously in question. For example, only around 10% of their pilots in 1990 were trained in night operations. That pretty much eliminated their real ability to fight the US, which specialized in night operations. Most of their equipment was not destroyed in the air, but on the ground. I have seen many of the protective bunkers their aircraft were hiding in, destroyed at night by single hits by US PGMs.

Are we talking about real life, or video games?

Maybe you should head over to the forum for video games, because this has absolutely no place here.

 

I know that when I was still in the grunts, for that distance we would use a MULE locally to call in a COPPERHEAD.

Or if that was not available, call in the Heavy Weapons company with a TOW.

But it is still a game, not real life.

I really could not give a damn about your "credentials", I do not take games as anything other than games.

Tell you what, here are my "credentials":

10 years, 0311
5 years 14T

Yes, I have run a TOC while deployed. And that is probably a good depiction of one.

Circa 1990.

And no, the TOC is really not used in the way you think.

Primarily it is used for organizing outside resources to assist a unit on the ground. Things like DUSTOFF, CAS and calls for fire. When I ran the TOC, the primary reason why I communicated with my lower units was in the event they had to go down for reload or had some kind of equipment failure. And of course I was involved in arranging them to get their missile reloads.

But we did not hold their hands, telling them what to shot at what targets. That is simply stupid.

Sorry, you have absolutely no concept of what is really involved.

And if that cup was for Madden 2015, would that mean you could try out for the NFL?

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FANTASY!

The reason I do not think much is that you are looking at it from a mistaken assumption. You really do not understand what is involved.

First of all, tanks do not operate alone. They operate with armored personnel carriers.

Now as for infantry not having the equipment to attack tanks, let me give it to you from my experience.

Every Marine Infantry Company has a Weapons Platoon. And in that platoon there will be an "Anti-Tank Team". However, they will be armed with the SMAW, good against lightly armored vehicles like the BMP, but not against modern MBTs.

However, each Battalion will have a Heavy Weapons Company, with an Anti-Tank Platoon. They will be equipped with equipment that can take out MBTs. The TOW, Javelin (Dragon in my era), and a Laser Designator (previously the MULE, now something newer and smaller) that can call in both CAS and artillery (like the COPPERHEAD) that can paint a target to be taken out by outside resources.

So an Infantry Platoon taking out a tank, not a chance. But an Infantry Battalion, yea. The resources of a Battalion can take out tanks.

Recruits?

God save us all from the armchair wannabees. They play Call of Duty, then think they are all Dick Marcinco. This guy plays a game with tanks, and thinks he is Patton.

 

You sound as if you've got sour grapes because your son whupped you at Pacman many years ago, but "video games" have advanced a bit since then to the point where even the military use them for training..

[video=youtube;NND7Hk5fYdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NND7Hk5fYdI[/video]

[video=youtube;Jm6_Hi1ZCM0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm6_Hi1ZCM0[/video]

 

What's 0311 and 14T mate? Write a book about your service and I'll buy it to add to my bookshelf full of military books, I learn a great amount of stuff from them to help me stay alive as I stalk the computer battlefield against human opponents..
"There is no hunting like the hunting of man"- Ernest Hemingway

PS- another thing I drum into my wargame recruits is- "Don't hesitate, just pull that trigger, because you'll be doing enemies a favour by sending them to meet Jesus"

 

*shakes head*

Grow up, eh?

And uses them for training, sometimes. Trust me, 99.98% of the training is done the good old fashioned way. By going into the field and doing what you would do in real life. Not playing video games.

Wow, you can not even bother to look up what an MOS code is? I guess your game playing has removed any ability to actually bother to do research.

0311, that is a Marine Infantryman. You know, the ones on the ground who actually use the anti-tank weapons you were going on about a while ago.
14T, Army PATRIOT Launching System Operator. You know, the ones that actually shoots down those aircraft some were going on about earlier.

And sorry, you know little to nothing. You are playing a game, that is not real life.

Playing that makes you about as much of a tanker as Madden 2016 makes you an NFL player. Or Microsoft Flight Simulator makes you a pilot. Or NASCAR makes you a race driver. Or GTA makes you a drug dealing felon.

Or playing Missile Command makes you a 14T.

Tell me, does being good at Counter Strike make you a SEAL? If you play Sim Hospital, does that make you a doctor?

You have a serious disconnect from reality.

 

Ah, so you were a grunt..
I almost joined the Brit Army as a teenager but dropped the idea because I knew I'd never be able to take orders that I didn't agree with, or fight wars that I didn't believe in, plus there was all the bullshine I'd have had to put up with, so I thought "Nah that sh*t's not for me, they'll have to get themselves another boy", and did the next best thing and became a military analyst, wargamer and moderator at forums like this one under my fighting name "Poor Old Spike"..-

 

Well I'll be damned, you earned the U.S. Marine Corps "Combat Action Ribbon" (CAR)

So did I.

The criteria for the CAR you have to be in a real fire fight shooting at someone who's shooting back at you trying to kill you.

The CAR is comparable to the U.S. Army's CIB (Combat Infantryman Badge.)

 

I see 73 easting being mentioned. I was there as a driver on an M1A1. Give me a show of hands who else was there. I want to add you to my friend list.

k troop 3/2 ACR. toujours pret!