Calling Jesus out on not letting gays into "heaven" & sending to "hell"

I actually believe in natural law, but belief in natural law is even more extinct than belief in the Ten Commandments. So, no, I don't think there are any circumstances under which the Nazis could be right. My case is that without an appeal to an external law, either natural or God-given, all opinions on morality are subjective and foundation-less. For those who believe in positive law and not God, there is no foundation to stand upon.

 

What is natural law?

 

I suppose I believe in positive law. The way I see it, it's very simple. Create the laws you prefer, and have them be enforced. I'm just have difficulty understanding why having this appeal to some other force is necessary when you can enforce your version of morality yourself. For me, external law, even if proven true, would be irrelevant. I don't feel a need for any foundation other than the fact that something is my opinion. From my perspective, it always seems as people are overthinking the issue. I suppose I also see natural or God-given laws as something of a "double-edged sword". On the one hand, it might support an opinion of mine, but it could also oppose it as well. Also, regarding my example about Nazi Germany, let us say instead that hypothetically, there was something you enjoyed or believed in. It was proven to be morally wrong. Would you change that about yourself and if so, why would you want to? Sorry, I don't mean to bother you with these questions. I'm just trying to understand this.

 

The first thing to understand is that I was responding to the OP's claim to be more moral than Jesus. Well, I say he ain't. His claim is based on a belief in his own moral rectitude, but there's no good reason to accept his claim. If you believe in God, and God condemns homosexuality in every religion I'm aware of, then the OP's morality is not superior to Jesus's. If you don't believe in God, then opinions are like *******s, everyone's got one, so the OP's morality is neither superior to nor inferior to Jesus's. In neither case does the OP "win".

The problem with positive law is that it cannot prevent or even condemn Nazi Germany. Everything the Nazis did was declared legal under German law, so under German law, the Holocaust, the war, the suppression of rights, were all fine and dandy. It took an appeal to natural law after the war to declare the Nazi authorities criminals and condemn them to death. There was no international law, no declaration of human rights, no governing body or system to say that what the Nazis did deserved death, but they were executed all the same.

I don't know how you would go about "proving" something immoral. I suppose everyone has his/her own moral code which probably does not coincide with an external code of behavior in every instance. For example, while I was still a Baptist, I took up contra dancing. I didn't feel the least bit guilty, either.

 

"What is best for humanity?", is the question to ask.
God/Jesus saying that gays are scum, deserve death, and won't let them into heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10) is clearly NOT best for humanity! Obviously the Modern Secular Humanist belief of "love gays, as equals" is far far better for humanity than the barbaric God/Jesus, and the intellectually-cowardly Christians who can't even find the moral courage to print new improved bibles that lack the savage/barbaric verses. Intellectual. Cowards.

 

It's INCREDIBLE how many people on this forum defend God/Jesus' sheer hatred of gays (they don't get into heaven, so they burn in a "lake of fire").....I'm losing faith in humanity. One day they will rise to the far far higher ethical level of Modern Secular Humanists....I hope. But since it's already been a whopping 2018 years or so, I won't hold my breath.

How can they live with themselves?

 

Yes, good point. Yes, God/Jesus is clearly a psycho. His followers, who put this psycho on the highest possible pedestal, well, read between the lines......

 

Like Q said, you can't back it up.

 

Great. Then you, like me, recommend that all Timothy be removed from the Bible, correct?

 

Great, then we both believe that Christians are delusional for BELIEVING a book that wasn't even, as we both agree, written by god nor by Jesus?

 

Yes, that's because Xianity, Judaism, and Islam are more about HATRED towards non-believers than they are about LOVE towards believers.

The Abrahamic faiths are some of the most hateful texts ever written. "Jesus is love?", ha, no, "Jesus is pure hatred" is more accurate. Will God/Jesus (according to a Biblical reading) see that more Jews get burned alive forever than the number of Jews that even Hitler slaughtered?........yep. So God/Jesus is worse than even ol' Adolf - making God/Jesus the worst person to ever live, period. Stop worshipping a pure monster.

 

But let's not expect much from a book that's allegedly breathed-on* by the most all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving entity to ever exist in the history of the universe.....no, let's not expect that - heaven forbid!!

*The Bible is saying that all passages in the Bible are breathed-out, or divinely inspired by, God/Jesus. The New Testament of the Bible says that “Every Scripture passage is breathed-out by god”, or that “All Scripture is inspired by God” (depending on the translation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17.) Add that to the 17+ verses in the New Testament that say that Jesus is GOD, and the Bible is saying that all passages in the Bible are breathed-out, or divinely inspired by, God/Jesus.

 

Nice rant, but it "inspired" doesn't mean it isn't flawed. God may have guided the hand of the men writing the Bible, but those men are flawed.

Consider this; is there any doubt that God could have imprinted the entire Bible into our brains so that everyone is born knowing every chapter and verse? God didn't do that, why? The Atheists will claim it's because God doesn't exist. I think it's because God wants us to figure somethings out for ourselves; it's the same reason schoolkids aren't given all the answers to tests. Why do you think God used such an inefficient tool like man to write the Bible?

 

Too bad the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving invisible man in the sky can't write, for the life of him, in 180,000 years of our species being around, a book that isn't full of hatred, inconsistencies, barbarity, and more hatred. It's almost as if he's NOT all-knowing etc., and was just made up out of thin air to control people - especially to control the sexuality of women (something that put sheer TERROR into the Biblical/Qur'anic heroes.)

 

If it was imprinted in our minds, we STILL wouldn't necessarily follow it, so yes, it would be a great idea. Otherwise that psycho is going to burn (forever!) innocent people who through no fault of their own never really HEARD MUCH ABOUT THE BIBLE! Only a complete psycho like God/Jesus would punish people like that!

 

Yes, inspired them to murder innocent people. Can we agree that your mother is more ethical than that god is?....or would your mother inspire anyone to murder innocent people, Max? I'm convinced your mom is more ethical than their "god" is....and I bet YOU are, too.

 

FS, sometimes I think that I am the only one around here that understands your pointing out of the irony and hypocrisy of christianity and islam. Strange that your thoughts attract negative arguments from christians, muslims, atheists, liberals, conservatives, progressives, socialists, capitalists, alt-leftists and alt-rightists alike. Of course, the blowback from the religious set isn't strange and is expected, but it seems at least some of the others would agree with you. Perhaps it is your use of logic that is offending them? And I suppose for others, it is okay for them to attack religion on their terms, but when they see someone else pointing out the hypocrisy, their perpetual guilt causes them to rush to the defense of the "underdog." Strange.

 

I'd have done that if I was "god"....but of course I'm more ethical than that POS is, so no surprise there.

 

Best post of the day.
Keep posting!

 

I've gotten them, over the years, to defend (I'm not joking!,) yes, defend, PEDOPHILIA, GENOCIDE, MURDER, HATRED OF WOMEN, DEATH TO GAYS, ETC! The world is as insane as Jesus was, I hate to say.

 

The psycho from Nazareth allegedly said in Revelation that people are NOT EVEN PERMITTED to improve the texts (Bible, basically), so of course they can't think for themselves and dare not even TRY to improve on the words of the hippie/zombie from Nazareth. Sad, really.

Fortunately, I left the zombie many years ago - best move I ever made.

 

Obviously you are a better person than most religious people are, including Jesus/Mohammad/Moses, because I'm pretty sure that if it was up to YOU that you'd let ethical Hindus/Buddhists/Sikhs into "heaven", and avoid brutal savage torture in a "lake of fire". That's because you are not a heartless supremacist like followers of many religions are. You are about love, they are about hatred. I admire you.

 

Correct. It'd still be choice, but then, too, it'd be proof of God. Ergo, not faith.

Dude, the only "complete psychos" are those who take the worst aspects of the Bible and never in context.

 

Would YOU, Max, inspire a book that approved of slavery, and genocide, and infanticide, and torture, and rape, and hatred, and homophobia, etc.?....or are you more ethical than their god is?