Uncommon Sense.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Grugore, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    Most people believe that life evolved on it's own. This might seem like common sense to them, but let's give this claim some further scrutiny.

    In every cell in your body there are proteins called DNA polymerase. These proteins are required for DNA to replicate itself. They latch onto a strand of DNA, read it, and create a copy.

    The information to construct a polymerase is contained in DNA.

    Does anyone see the problem? One cannot exist without the other. So how do they exist at all? In order to have a functioning cell, both would have had to come into existence at the same time. Not only that, they also require the assistance of many other components that exist in every cell. A cell is so incredibly complex that it could not possibly have evolved in stages, since every component is necessary for the proper function of that cell. If just one of the many components are missing the cell either does not function properly or dies.

    Here is an example of something called a gene regulatory network
    [​IMG]
    This is just one of many GRN's in every human cell.

    Now, I realize that some of you would claim that my argument that a Creator is necessary for such complexity is stupid. My question to you would be, if not God, then who or what is responsible? By definition, anything or anyone capable of creating something this complex, would be considered a God. If you don't believe in God, then you actually believe that all of this complexity simply happened on it's own. Take a good look at the picture I posted. Zoom in and get a good look at it. Do you honestly believe it assembled itself from a bunch of random chemicals?
     
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  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Obviously, it didn't randomly assemble itself in its current form. It started out as a much simpler structure. Random doesn't mean that it has a low chance of happening.

    Natural selection can create patterns in randomness. If you roll 100 dice, then pick up all the ones that aren't sixes and roll them again and keep doing that, eventually all your dice will be sixes. This example shows that you can get structure from a random process if you have a non-random selection, and natural selection is indeed non-random.
     
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  3. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    There is no scientific evidence that this is even possible. Information cannot arise from chaos. DNA is information. In fact, it is equivalent to a high level programming language. And every observation ever made concludes that language comes only from intelligent minds. This is not opinion. It is scientific fact.
     
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  4. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you ever stopped to consider how life could be so diverse. A scientist might say that life began in a primordial soup, just one little spark. That spark needed food - it would have died before it ever got started, so there had to be many diverse sparks being given life at the same time, so that they could evolve and eat each other later. This planet was seeded with many different life forms.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    monkeys
     
  6. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Information arises from chaos every day, or do you think god makes every single snowflake?
     
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  7. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is completely inaccurate.
     
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  8. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    You obviously have the wrong definition of information. A snowflake contains order, but no information. It is the result of physical processes. But it does not contain any meaningful information.
     
  9. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Neither does DNA by that definition.
     
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  10. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    Wrong! All of the processes in a human cell are controlled by DNA. It contains all of the data required to create everything that a cell requires to live, as well as their behavior. DNA controls it all. This could not happen unless DNA was a language. It is no different than a modern computer, except that it is much more complex than any computer ever built.
     
  11. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    It isn't "data". Its chemistry. You are engaging in anthropomorphizing chemical reactions.
     
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  12. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    Chemistry is only the medium used. A random collection of nucleotides could accomplish nothing. Information is required for this to occur. Information is immaterial. It is not a part of the physical universe, since it is not composed of matter or energy. It exists apart from matter and energy, and is the result of intelligent minds. Back to your example, chemicals are not information. They are simply chemicals. They contain no information. The information contained in any medium can be reproduced in any other medium. It can be written down on paper, stored on a hard drive, or even transmitted by smoke signals. The information is the same regardless of the medium used. So, the behavior of DNA is not simply chemical. It merely uses chemicals to store information.
     
  13. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    No, literally all that is required is chemistry. Chemicals interact in very specific ways. No information is involved and this idea that information is some magical immaterial thing is bunk to.

    Information is just a chemical reaction in your brain.
     
  14. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    You obviously know nothing about information theory. Allow me to educate you, since you seem lacking. What do you suppose would happen if you replaced human DNA with a series of random base pairs? The answer is nothing. Both are composed of chemicals. One is responsible for life. The other is inert. It does nothing. The first has information. the second does not. With me so far? Once again, DNA contains language. This is proven because the information is read and acted upon. DNA made from a random series of base pairs could not do this. Once again, the information content of DNA is immaterial. It could not exist unless it's chemicals were created in such a way as to contain this information. The chemicals are not information. They are merely used to represent information. And as I've already stated, information is something that originates from intelligent minds. This is a proven fact.
     
  15. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who says the Universe is chaotic or stupid?
     
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  16. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Full stop right here. You can't replace DNA with a random series of base pairs because the chemistry wouldn't work.
     
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  17. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    So, you believe that Michangelo's Mona Lisa, or Betovan's 5th symphony are the result of chemical reactions? BWAHAHAHAHA! Good one. <Mod Edit- Rule 2/4>
     
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  18. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    And doesn't that simple fact indicate that it was created? Read up on something called chiralty, and get back to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  19. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Yes, they are the end results of chemical reactions. In fact, scientists could alter your brain chemistry and it would change how you think. They do it every day.
     
  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    No it doesn't. Any more than naturally occurring chemicals of any kind indicate creation.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. Or as I prefer to call it, the water filled pothole problem.
     
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  21. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    DNA requires left-handed amino acids. If there is just one right-handed amino acid, it destroys it's ability to function. Do you know what the odds are of that happening? On top of that, those same amino acids must be arranged in the correct order, further complicating the process. Also, let's address what I said in the OP. Proteins are required for DNA to replicate itself. The information for those proteins are contained in DNA. It's a catch 22. One cannot exist without the other. They both must exist at the same time and place, along with countless other cell components in order to do anything. It is sheer lunacy to believe that all of those components could assemble themselves at the same time.
     
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  22. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, it doesn't. When you have proof DNA was "created", get back to me.

    How old do you think the Earth is? The human species?
     
  23. Grugore

    Grugore Active Member

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    Why do I need proof? There is no proof that it evolved by itself.
     
  24. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    If there are random mutations, it is reasonable that different individuals evolve in different directions, giving rise to a diversity.
     
  25. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What always gets me is, as humans, we think we can know all that is knowable. We will even change others' lives because of that. What bothers me more is, folks came here to America, to stop others from telling them how to worship and live. Yet, it seems we have never come more close to full circle.

    I don't see the advantages.
     

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