Is Confederate flag a symbol of hate?

I live in a country wherein over half of the people identify with the purveyors of slavery. For you to come here, skip 30 or 40 posts (probably more) and begin to pretend that you're judging me based upon some criteria that has already been addressed is both ignorant AND disingenuous. It has been shown in previous posts that the masses demand slavery. They slap a little lipstick on a pig and call it something else, but it is what it is. I make no moral judgment because the Democrats were the greatest purveyors of slavery. And WHO is complaining about the issue? Democrats. And, which party votes against Freedom and Liberty - wanting a government / god to protect them? Democrats.

You have conflated the issues of slavery and cultural heritage in an attempt to derail this thread because you don't have a point. Just to shut your mouth, I am the only swinging soul on this board OR ANY OTHER that I've ever been on that fought for Freedom and Liberty while the Democrats and Republicans; left and right; conservative and liberal were advocating slavery in one form or another. This much I can promise you: If you REALLY, GENUINELY, AND HONESTLY oppose slavery, you will end up with NO supporters. Slavery is a fact of life and it doesn't have squat to do with the Confederate flag debate. To try and claim that those who fly the Confederate flag are one dimensional dolts that give two hoots in Hades about slavery and nothing else or holding down the black people is prejudicial, bigoted, hatred that is no less immoral than slavery itself. You should read this thread before passing judgment and saying really stupid things.

 

Here's an interesting article. I forgot where I got it from, but it's very enlightening.

Real reasons for the Civil War:

This is well-reasoned document concerning the reasons the Civil War occurred.


Many people think the Civil War of 1860-1865 was fought over one issue alone, slavery. Nothing could actually be further from the truth. The War Between the States began because the South demanded States' rights and were not getting them.


The Congress at that time heavily favored the industrialized northern states to the point of demanding that the South sell is cotton and other raw materials only to the factories in the north, rather than to other countries. The Congress also taxed the finished materials that the northern industries produced heavily, making finished products that the South wanted, unaffordable. The Civil War should not have occurred. If the Northern States and their representatives in Congress had only listened to the problems of the South, and stopped these practices that were almost like the taxation without representation of Great Britain, then the Southern states would not have seceded and the war would not have occurred.


I know for many years, we have been taught that the Civil War was all about the abolition of slavery, but this truly did not become a major issue, with the exception of John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry, until after the Battle of Antietam in September 1862, when Abraham Lincoln decided to free the slaves in the Confederate States in order to punish those states for continuing the war effort. The war had been in progress for two years by that time.


Most southerners did not even own slaves nor did they own plantations. Most of them were small farmers who worked their farms with their families. They were fighting for their rights. They were fighting to maintain their lifestyle and their independence the way they wanted to without the United States Government dictating to them how they should behave.


Why are we frequently taught then, that the Civil War, War of Northern Aggression, War Between the States, or whatever you want to call it, was solely about slavery? That is because the history books are usually written by the winners of a war and this war was won by the Union. However, after following my family around since I was just a year old to Civil War Living History scenarios in Gettysburg and elsewhere, I have listened to both sides of the story, from those portraying historical figures, both Union and Confederate. Through listening to these people and also reading many different books, including some of the volumes of The Official Records of the Civil War, Death in September, The Insanity of It All, Every Day Life During the Civil War, and many others, I have come to the conclusion that the Civil War was about much more than abolishing the institution of slavery.


It was more about preserving the United States and protecting the rights of the individual, the very tenets upon which this country was founded. I personally think that the people who profess that the Civil War was only fought about slavery have not read their history books. I really am glad that slavery was abolished, but I don't think it should be glorified as being the sole reason the Civil War was fought. There are so many more issues that people were intensely passionate about at the time. Slavery was one of them, but it was not the primary cause of the war. The primary causes of the war were economics and states' rights.


Slavery was a part of those greater issues, but it was not the reason the Southern States seceded from the Union, nor fought the Civil War. It certainly was a Southern institution that was part of the economic system of the plantations, and because of that, it was part and parcel of the economic reasons that the South formed the Confederacy. The economic issue was one of taxation and being able to sell cotton and other raw materials where the producers wanted to, rather than where they were forced to, and at under inflated prices. Funny, it sounds very much like the reason we broke from Great Britain to begin with. The South was within their rights, but there should have been another way to solve the problem. If they had been willing to listen to Abraham Lincoln, perhaps the war could have been avoided. Lincoln had a plan to gradually free the slaves without it further hurting the plantation owners. He also had a plan to allow them to sell their products anywhere they wanted to and at a fair price. They did not choose to listen to the President, however, so they formed the Confederacy and the Civil War began.

 

I conflated nothing. My only comment was on your opinion that slavery is neither good or bad. It seems you are doing the conflating, comparing slavery to living in a democratic republic. Minimizing human ownership by comparing it to living in a free society with some rules you don't like, but then it is coming from someone who believes only whites should have been given citizenship.

 

The legitimate / de jure / lawful / legal / constitutional form of government in the United States is NOT a "democratic republic." The Constitution of the United States is oft times referred to as a "social contract." In Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution of the United States, you will read these words:

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government" (emphasis mine, of course.)

I've never stated an opinion one way or the other whether or not only whites should be granted citizenship. I've only said that there is nothing inherently wrong with it. For all your personal attacks, I'd bet dollars against doughnuts that you do not have one, single, solitary thread on this board (or any other) where you have decried the slavery started by non-whites. You don't have one single, solitary thread wherein you get your panties in a bunch over those countries that are 98+ percent homogeneous and if I take all the stuff in your house or apartment that was made in a "racist" country, the balance of what you own would fit into a bathroom. So, by silence and by spending your money buying goods made by slaves and / or "racists," you destroy any argument you have with me. It's just that some people feel that only whites can be "racist;" only whites should be accountable for slavery and that the federal government was justified in violating the Constitution of the United States by attacking states rights using slavery as a pretext. You support racism - just not the kind of "racism" practiced by whites. I'd bet that a sizable amount of the stuff in your home was made in China. Did you know that the Trump administration is warning people to avoid products made by Chinese slaves?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/1/us-warns-on-chinese-slave-labor/

Please direct me to the threads you've started wherein you denounce foreign slave labor and have pledged not to buy any products made in countries that use slave labor. Can you show me one? OR are you blindly slinging skeet at me for simply admitting the truth. It is what it is. I buy products in stores and I don't look at every label to see where it was made - and on many products it doesn't matter anyway. So, any objective observer can claim I support slavery. But you? You've been all judgmental and all. You might find that many of the computer components you rely on to try and humiliate me for admitting the truth were MADE IN CHINA. The difference between you and I is that I'm not being a hypocrite about it. Unless you are boycotting all products made in countries that employ slave labor and you buy American made or not all (foregoing many modern luxuries in the process), then you are financing slavery and are not fit to pass judgment against me. But I digress.

Since China is 98 + percent homogeneous AND they use slave labor, they would be racist (sic) and pro-slavery. Go check your shelves and your electronics and see how much of it is MADE IN CHINA. Then come back here and tell me what an S.O.B. I am, but not before telling us whether or not you feel hypocritical for constantly judging me. I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. When people like you put their money where their mouth is; when you speak out against China; when you boycott all products MADE IN CHINA, you will have earned the right to call me out on what I said, but not before then.

Finally, we've heard so much about this bastardized 'democratic republic" that even Republicans think we live in a democracy and NOBODY bothers to enumerate the features of our REPUBLICAN Form of Government. There is a difference and not too many years ago, those tasked with defending the Republic knew those differences. You may want to educate yourself:

https://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvdem.htm Click on the link that goes to Training Manual No. 2000-25 and educate yourself.

 

You digress a lot. Still don't know whether slavery is good or bad?
" America was founded by white people for the advancement, preservation and protection of the white people..... So, of course, it was intended for whites to be in charge of this country. White people don't owe anyone an apology for that. You make it sound like there is some inherent sin in a given people having their own country. ''
And you assert the 14th Amendment giving citizenship to all born or naturalized in the US, including slaves citizenship was illegal.
What is one to think?

 

Because America was founded for the advancement, protection, and protection of the white race has NOTHING to do with slavery. Now, you're going to go into a new routine because you cannot give an honest answer to the questions I asked of you. A fact does not care how popular or unpopular it is. And you've done nothing now save of proving that YOU SUPPORT SLAVERY. Shall I repeat my questions to you?

The 14th Amendment was illegally ratified. It's one of the reasons the racial divide is just as great today as it was over a century and a half ago. It is also the major reason your Rights got flushed down the toilet. Finally, that issue has NO RELEVANCY TO THIS DISCUSSION. So, can you answer my questions or shall I repeat them? Okay, let's start here:

Please direct me to the threads you've started wherein you denounce foreign slave labor and have pledged not to buy any products made in countries that use slave labor. Can you show me one? OR are you blindly slinging skeet at me for simply admitting the truth. It is what it is. I buy products in stores and I don't look at every label to see where it was made - and on many products it doesn't matter anyway. So, any objective observer can claim I support slavery. But you? You've been all judgmental and all. You might find that many of the computer components you rely on to try and humiliate me for admitting the truth were MADE IN CHINA. The difference between you and I is that I'm not being a hypocrite about it. Unless you are boycotting all products made in countries that employ slave labor and you buy American made or not all (foregoing many modern luxuries in the process), then you are financing slavery and are not fit to pass judgment against me

 

Dammit snowflakes grow a bit of back bone.

General Lee wouldn't be General Lee without the flag.

 

Uh, don't buy anything that says MADE IN USA either..... "The United States is one of the most advanced countries in the world yet has more than 400,000 modern slaves working under forced labor conditions."

 

any State that left would have to take their portion of our 30 Trillion debt.... so I do not think any will be leaving anytime soon

 

Did I not point out that many jobs require a person to go through an employment agency wherein a guy sitting on his arse gets a portion of your wages and owns you for the duration of your employment with the employment agency? Honestly, did I not point that out? And I'll go one further:

Studying many employee handbooks, you will find that a lot of employers require you to give up a lot of your Rights in exchange for the job. My favorite example is the "background check." Ah, but it is a private employer and your Rights only apply to the government. But, the employer is relying on government records to base their decision on. So, a person did a crime, paid the fine, served the time and now they cannot enter back into society as an equal. They are twice punished (which is unconstitutional) and government records are not what you think they are. Humor me and think about it.

People serve time for a crime they did not commit. While in prison, this individual wins the Right to an appeal. The government, not wanting to admit they made a mistake, now goes to the prisoner and says, hey if you will agree to copping to a lesser charge, we can call it time served and you can go home. So, this prisoner can wait for two years for an appeal, fight a court battle that could take another year or two OR they can go home within a couple of days. Do you think an employer is going to consider that? Hell NO. The prisoner is going home. And I'd like to get really specific here. I'd like to tell you the name of a former prosecutor who KNOWINGLY convicted innocent people and sent them to prison. Her name is Kamala Harris.

A person with a criminal record in the United States is a second class citizen (and they aren't really that since they have no Rights left) that is no more than a slave in society. You cannot point your finger at me for accepting the truth and claim I'm "for" slavery simply because I acknowledge it. YOU are the one that votes for the purveyors of slavery. I do not vote for them. YOU support the political party with ties to slavery, not me. Apparently, there is nothing immoral about it - UNLESS you want to admit to being an immoral individual. You've had your whole life to condemn slavery and, with the exception of condemning white people for being involved in it, you cannot point out a single time in your own life where you've denounced it. No, you cannot. And when you cast your vote, it will be for a hate filled political propaganda prostitute that has made slaves out of innocent Americans. Unlike you, I have pointed out who the people are in the U.S. that believe in creating a slave class AND I do not vote for them and I do not support them. You do. So, you should take this opportunity to shut up, stand down and hope that this conversation does not continue much longer. The longer this goes on, the deeper you will dig that hole you dug for yourself.

 

War against the USA is treason.

 

What does it matter what people think or thought?
Treason is defined.
The south going to war AGAINST the USA, fits the description of treason. Matters not their reason. There is/was no constitutional right to start a war against the USA.

 

There's a couple posters claiming the south had a constitutional right to secede. But the USSC says no. The USA gov't says no. The Civil War says no.

 

The North violated the Tenth Amendment. So, the government committed an act of treason. There is nothing new being added to the thread in your statement.

 

You're beating a dead horse. You've made the same argument no less than 25 times on this thread and you have ignored the counter-argument. AND you're on the losing side of the poll. That should tell you something.

The North had no authority to outlaw slavery. That's in the Tenth Amendment. You've yet to address that.

If the North had the authority to outlaw slavery, you would not have needed the 13th Amendment. You've yet to address that.

We fought the War of Independence because the colonists believed states DO have a Right to secede the Union. Winning a war and imposing an evil on the South does not alter the reality. You've yet to address that.

Let's just keep reposting the same thing rather than rephrasing it and see if changes anything over the next 50 to 100 posts. You can only rephrase the same losing argument so many times before even the most mentally challenged catches on.

 

Besides your extremely watered down version of what a slave is (an ex-con?) you seem to have come to the conclusion that slavery is a bad thing. That's good, you've grown.
Now, one more little point to clarify things, should the ex-slaves been given citizenship?
Ramble on.

 

Ramble on? Yeah right. I've not grown (sic) any more right now than at any time in the past. My political activism on the subject has not changed. As stated, you dodge, duck, deflect and deny but YOU WILL SUPPORT SLAVERY THE NEXT TIME YOU CAST A VOTE. So, I can stipulate that what you're doing is wrong IF you think it is. Slavery is slavery regardless of who the victim is. IF slavery were wrong, you would not vote for slave masters. Yet you do and you will.

The more you post, the deeper you dig your own hole. The reality is, indentured servitude was slavery. Poor people do not have choices except in theory. And, so, the fact is indentured slaves had it much worse than the slaves you want to claim had it so bad. The fact is, over 60 percent of indentured servants never lived long enough to pay off their debt. Contrast that to the fact that slaves in the United States ate better, lived longer, had better housing, and access to better health care than their white skin, blue collar contemporaries. You are not answering my questions because you realize that I'm right. And, to answer one of your idiotic questions - Hell no, I'm not an ex con. I'm someone that worked in the legal arena for several decades. I'm not a coward that is afraid to answer honest questions. So how about you? Since you like quoting me, let me quote myself when I asked of you:

"Apparently, there is nothing immoral about it - UNLESS you want to admit to being an immoral individual. You've had your whole life to condemn slavery and, with the exception of condemning white people for being involved in it, you cannot point out a single time in your own life where you've denounced it."

You keep posting, but you keep dodging, ducking, deflecting, and denying the facts. Now show me the thread you started condemning slavery when it was initiated by non-whites. Post a link to that thread wherein you denounce the blacks that sold their own brethren into slavery OR maybe the thread you started identifying the slave traders and demanding accountability. Is it just white people you hate so much? Show me where you have posted about non-whites that engaged in the slave trade. If you can't and you continue this game, would it be fair to come to the conclusion that you advocate anti-white racism?

 

I love to reply to you, but they are deleting my replies. And you can make silly allegations that are not truthful all you like. Repeating the lies will not make them come true. The selective censorship will make it difficult to combat what you are posting, but keep doing it. You seem to have carte blanche to insult and lie without any fear of reprisals or accountability.

 

The poll has nothing to do with treason.

I say the same argument because you nor anyone else proved starting a war against the USA is NOT treason.
You can't. It's the very definition of treason.

The most serious attempt at secession was advanced in the years 1860 and 1861 as eleven Southern states each declared secession from the United States, and joined together to form the Confederate States of America. This movement collapsed in 1865 with the defeat of Confederate forces by Union armies in the American Civil War.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States

 

In Lower South about 36.7% of the white families owned slaves. In the Middle South (VA, NC, TN, AR the percentage is around 25.3%. Given the logic presented above it should not be surprising that the states that led the exodus from the Union, were those states that that had the highest levels of slave ownership.

State Percentage of Slave Owning Families Date of Secession

Mississippi 49% January 9, 1861
South Carolina 46% December 20, 1860
Georgia 37% January 19, 1861
Alabama 35% January 11, 1861
Florida 34% January 10, 1861
Louisiana 29% January 26, 1861
Texas 28% February 1, 1861


Of course the South Carolinians helped matters along by firing on and capturing Fort Sumter. As author Russell McClintock states:

"With the Confederate attack on Fort Sumter, which early on in the crisis had become a concrete focal point for Northern Unionism, any remaining alternatives vanished. Northerners of all parties reacted to fury to what they perceived as aggression against the flag, and a suddenly united region rallied to the president's call to arms. And, in Lincoln's words, the war came."7
https://www.civil-war-journeys.org/causes_of_the_civil_war.htm

 

Should the ex-slaves been given citizenship?

 

Again, you have the advantage of conflating this entire thread and I cannot respond when my posts toward you are being deleted while they allow you the latitude denied to me. So, that is the way people like you "win." Use force. It works. Treason, son, was when the North tried to force the South to give up a practice without being held to the clear wording of the Tenth Amendment. You can NEVER change the truth.

 

When you answer my questions, I will be more than happy to answer yours. This is a discussion, not an interrogation and you ain't interrogating me. Answer my questions OR bear in mind, silence speaks a language of its own. If you insist on playing Perry Mason, then remember this while avoiding answering me:

"A matter is admitted unless, within 30 days after being served, the party to whom the request is directed serves on the requesting party a written answer or objection addressed to the matter and signed by the party or its attorney. A shorter or longer time for responding may be stipulated to under Rule 29 or be ordered by the court." (Federal Rules for Admissions of Fact)

So, if you want to pretend this is s federal case, it's only reasonable that we play by the rules. So you're admitting you have NO record of ever having complained about slavery when it was initiated by non-whites? You've never tried to hold blacks who sold their own brethren accountable in even ONE thread? Do you buy products that were made by slave labor? Do you have ANY history of denouncing slavery when whites were the victims and / or blacks involved in the slave trade profited off it? So, the longer you go without answering, the more guilty you would look on my playground.

 

1. Yes, never came up. I woulda if it did.
2. No, not been to that thread.
3. If I knew they were, I wouldn't.
4. Never came up, I would if true.

Okay, and now it's your turn to take the stand.

 

So...which is it??

I voted no. I don't think it's a symbol of hatred. Just a symbol of the south's history, good and bad.