Ukraine will become a developed country

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Interaktive, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    In English please?
     
  2. Interaktive

    Interaktive Well-Known Member

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    I have no interest to speak with you
     
  3. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Then don't reply to my posts with silly one line nonsense. Bye. :)
     
  4. Interaktive

    Interaktive Well-Known Member

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    Please don't write in this thread
     
  5. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Is that an order? Don't take me for one of those that know nothing Interaktive. I know exactly what happened in Ukraine and not one of those that fell for the mass media verison. You lost the Ukraine when you overthrew Yanukovych and let the nationalists loose. You're now paying for it and I just happen to provide a few home truths.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2022
  6. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I have. That is why I understand that the reason why Russia is invading Ukraine is because Russians are evil people who like to rape and murder innocent civilians.


    The only Nazis in Ukraine are the Russian invaders.


    They are a much more reliable source of information than the KGB.


    KGB lies.


    The only Nazis in Ukraine are the Russians who are invading them.
     
  7. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    All KGB lies.


    Perhaps you should stop believing KGB lies so much.


    The only reason why Russia is invading Ukraine is because Russia wants to perpetrate acts like that.


    That is doubly wrong. First, in addition to there not being any Nazis there, there have been no such attacks on ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

    At least, not until now. Now, Russia itself is slaughtering large numbers of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

    And second, the reason why Putin is doing this is pure and simple aggression. Russians are evil people who like to rape and murder innocent civilians.


    That as well is incorrect. The International Criminal Court has taken jurisdiction over Russia's invasions of Georgia and Ukraine.

    That means all the Russian war criminals will face justice.
     
  8. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Tell me, what are your sources that state these allegations? Fanciful imagination? Did you take a look at page 4 on this thread? There are some examples of non-Russian Nazis. Take a peek.
    Find out about Operation Paperclip and Operation Mockingbird. Educate yourself before waffling insanely. Here are a couple of bonuses for you. Indulge yourself in some learning.

    Nazi Roots of Ukraine’s Conflict

    Ukraine citizen speaks out
     
  9. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    There are numerous reporters on the ground reporting on Russia's aggression.


    I've read the entire thread. But I don't specifically recall page four now.


    KGB lies.


    I am already educated.

    I also have no intention of waffling. Although there are some boards where I both defend Russia from unfair accusations and condemn them for their actual crimes.


    I do not consider KGB lies to be educational.
     
  10. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Show me?
    It's very easy. At the top or bottom of the thread page, there are thread pages that are numbered. Choose #4, and you're there. Viola.
    Wrongly mistaken. Factual historical events. "KBG lies", is a cop-out, prove that they are then?
    No, sorry. You're not. If you were, we wouldn't be having these conversations and with the lies & propaganda by MSM you claim to be the truth, you'll realise they've been lying to you
    all this time.
    Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? How do you become educated? By learning.
    Intelligent people are curious folks. They look at, observe, learn about and become intrigued with new ideas, concepts, opinions etc. Did you know that? If you were educated on the matter, you'd
    of known that the KBG are no more since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. The KGB was split into 2 branches. The FSB and the SVR. I'll let you pick up from here.
     
  11. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Here is an example of Russia slaughtering ethnic Russians in Ukraine:
    https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kharkiv-5a99917136eecc3af41c39f1d0ea9242


    As I said, I've already read the entire thread.


    No mistake. The KGB always lies about the nations that Russia invades.


    That is incorrect. There is nothing factual or historical about the lies that the KGB spews.


    It is proper that KGB lies be automatically disregarded.


    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/h...ly-false-information-about-the-war-in-ukraine

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/20/world/asia/russia-putin-propaganda-media.html

    https://www.state.gov/fact-vs-fiction-russian-disinformation-on-ukraine/

    https://theconversation.com/ukraine...nd-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100


    Yes I am. That is how I know to dismiss KGB lies.


    That is incorrect. As long as you keep repeating the KGB's lies, educated people will challenge them.


    The media is far from perfect. But it is the KGB that is lying.


    I wouldn't know.


    Learning only works if what you are learning is true.


    Yes.


    Spare me the endless "renaming" nonsense.

    They change the name of Leningrad every five minutes too. As if changing the name would ever prevent our nukes from smashing the place into a radioactive crater.

    It doesn't matter how many times you change the KGB's name, that will not make their lies become true.
     
  12. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Straight away, a dead giveaway. CIA director says... CIA are the masters of BS. Operation Mockingbird. *FAIL*
    Inadmissible. Can't read the article, I don't want to pay for a subscription. Plus, it's MSM. Look at Operation Mockingbird link above. *FAIL*
    Look at what the US government has done since being in Office? They have screwed that country up royally. How can you believe these nutjobs? Don't answer that,
    I already know. Because of their constant lies and deceptions. It's another *FAIL*
    The first paragraph says it all. The Russians know that all MSM is BS & lies. The rest is just rubbish. *1/2 point*

    You've still got a lot to learn, in terms of what is real what is fake, truth & lies mis & disinformation. The unfortunate part is that many, like you, will find out the hard way.
    Ignorance is bliss, to be able to look at all sources, for & against, learning who and what is manipulating the information, then and only then, do you find out the truth.
     
  13. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a subscription. I guess I haven't used up my quota of sample articles.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Truth Is Another Front in Putin's War

    The Kremlin has used a barrage of increasingly outlandish falsehoods to prop up its overarching claim that the invasion of Ukraine is justified.

    By Steven Lee Myers and Stuart A. Thompson

    March 20, 2022

    In the tense weeks before Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, Russian officials denied that it planned anything of the sort, denouncing the United States and its NATO allies for stoking panic and anti-Russian hatred. When it did invade, the officials denied it was at war.

    Since then, the Kremlin has cycled through a torrent of lies to explain why it had to wage a "special military operation" against a sovereign neighbor. Drug-addled neo-Nazis. Genocide. American biological weapons factories. Birds and reptiles trained to carry pathogens into Russia. Ukrainian forces bombing their own cities, including theaters sheltering children.

    Disinformation in wartime is as old as war itself, but today war unfolds in the age of social media and digital diplomacy. That has given Russia -- and its allies in China and elsewhere -- powerful means to prop up the claim that the invasion is justified, exploiting disinformation to rally its citizens at home and to discredit its enemies abroad. Truth has simply become another front in Russia's war.

    Using a barrage of increasingly outlandish falsehoods, President Vladimir V. Putin has created an alternative reality, one in which Russia is at war not with Ukraine but with a larger, more pernicious enemy in the West. Even since the war began, the lies have gotten more and more bizarre, transforming from claims that "true sovereignty" for Ukraine was possible only under Russia, made before the attacks, to those about migratory birds carrying bioweapons.

    Russia's message has proved successful domestically, where the Kremlin's claims go unchallenged. Surveys suggest a majority of Russians support the war effort. Internationally, the campaign has seeped into an information ecosystem that allows them to spread virulently, reaching audiences that were once harder to reach.

    "Previously, if you were sitting in Moscow and you wanted to reach audiences sitting in, say, Idaho, you would have to work really hard doing that," said Elise Thomas, a researcher in Australia for the Institute of Strategic Dialogue, referring to disinformation campaigns dating to the Soviet Union. "It would take you time to set up the systems, whereas now you can do it with the press of a button."

    The power of Russia's claim that the invasion is justified comes not from the veracity of any individual falsehood meant to support it but from the broader argument. Individual lies about bioweapons labs or crisis actors are advanced by Russia as swiftly as they are debunked, with little consistency or logic between them. But supporters stubbornly cling to the overarching belief that something is wrong in Ukraine and Russia will fix it. Those connections prove harder to shake, even as new evidence is introduced.

    That mythology, and its resilience in the face of fact-checking and criticism, reflects "the ability of autocrats and malign actors to completely brainwash us to the point where we don't see what's in front of us," said Laura Thornton, the director and senior fellow at the German Marshall Fund's Alliance for Securing Democracy.

    The Kremlin's narratives today feed on pre-existing views of the war's root causes, which Mr. Putin has nurtured for years -- and restated in increasingly strident language last week.

    The strategy to deceive, or at least confuse, international observers was used after the bombing of a maternity ward in Mariupol on March 9.

    The day after the bombardment, official Russian accounts falsely claimed that a pregnant woman seen in photos from Mariupol had faked her injuries.

    The story appeared on the official accounts of more than a dozen Russian embassies, according to data collected by FakeReporter, an Israeli group that studies disinformation, and ricocheted across Twitter, Facebook and Telegram.

    Many of the posts used the exact same media and similar language, suggesting a coordinated campaign.

    Twitter and Facebook eventually removed the posts, but gruesome photographs, stamped "Fake," continued circulating across the internet, including on the chat app Telegram.

    Another meme gained even more traction, relying on a yearslong campaign in Russia to stoke unfounded fears that the United States was manufacturing biological weapons in Ukraine.

    The claim gained ground in English-language social media just two days into the invasion after a Twitter post by the account WarClandestine went viral. Until the account was suspended, it peddled QAnon conspiracy theories about secretive government plots. These theories fester and then seep into the mainstream.

    By early March, the Russian Defense Ministry claimed it had uncovered "traces of a military biological program" in Ukraine, which it said was "financed by the U.S. Defense Ministry."

    The Fox News host Tucker Carlson soon floated the idea on his show, airing Russia's statement and dismissing the explanation from United States officials that they were diagnostic and biodefense laboratories used for research, saying, "Whether you call them weapons or not is completely irrelevant, because they can be used as weapons."

    Mr. Carlson's commentaries were then picked up in Russian media, including in a Telegram post by the Russian state news agency RIA Novosti that received over one million views.

    China's government and state media parroted the claim too, in what was clearly an effort to discredit the American government's frequent criticism of China's behavior.

    When Russia took such claims to an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council, however, it faced withering criticism. "Russia has today brought into the Security Council a series of wild, completely baseless and irresponsible conspiracy theories," the British representative, Barbara Woodward, told the Council. "Let me put it diplomatically: They are utter nonsense."

    Russia's accusations about nefarious American activities in Ukraine date back decades, resurfacing in new forms with each new crisis, like the political upheaval in 2014 that led to Russia's annexation of Crimea.

    Ukraine is waging an information campaign of its own, aiming to discredit Russia, exaggerate its own military successes and minimize its losses. It has also circulated false reports of heroism, including the martyrdom of soldiers defending an island in the Black Sea and the exploits of an ace fighter pilot in the skies over Kyiv.

    By most accounts, Ukraine has so far been winning the information war, led by a powerful social media operation that flooded the internet with its own jumble of anecdotes and myths, bolstering morale among Ukrainians and uniting the Western world behind its cause. The most central figure in their campaign has been President Volodymyr Zelensky himself, whose video messages to Ukrainians and the world have combined bravery with the stage presence of the television performer he once was.

    Russia, though, has more tools and reach, and it has the upper hand with weaponry. The strategy has been to overwhelm the information space, especially at home, which "is really where their focus is," said Peter Pomerantsev, a scholar at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University who has written extensively about Russian propaganda.

    Russia's propaganda machine plays into suspicion of the West and NATO, which have been vilified on state television for years, deeply embedding distrust in Russian society. State media has also more recently echoed beliefs advanced by the QAnon movement, which ascribes the world's problems largely to global elites and sex traffickers.

    Those beliefs make people feel "scared and uncertain and alienated," said Sophia Moskalenko, a social psychologist at Georgia State University. "As a result of manipulating their emotions, they will be more likely to embrace conspiracy theories."

    Mr. Putin's public remarks, which dominate state media, have become increasingly strident. He has warned that nationalist sentiment in Ukraine is a threat to Russia itself, as is NATO expansion.

    Yet when the invasion began, it seemed to catch the organs of the propaganda apparatus unprepared. Officials and state media had just spent weeks accusing the Biden administration of exaggerating what Russia claimed were simply regular military exercises, not the buildup of an invasion force.

    "Clearly, they did not prepare the information warfare machine," Mr. Pomerantsev said. "It takes months to prepare something like this."

    That could explain the changing, disjointed nature of Russia's campaign. The threat of biological weapons in Ukraine -- let alone secret American weapons factories producing them there -- was not cited as a rationale for the "special military operation" that Mr. Putin announced at dawn on Feb. 24. These falsehoods emerged only later.

    "They throw stuff out and they see what works," said Ms. Thomas, the researcher from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. "And what's really working for them at the moment is the biolabs stuff."

    The Kremlin's campaign has gone beyond simply propagating its message. It has moved swiftly to silence dissenting points of view that could cut through the fog of war and discourage the Russian population.

    For now, the campaign appears to have rallied public opinion behind Mr. Putin, according to most surveys in Russia, though not as high as might be expected for a country at war.

    "My impression is that many people in Russia are buying the government's narrative," said Alexander Gabuev, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Moscow Center. "They have doctored images on state-controlled media. Private media don't cover the war, fearing 15 years in prison. Same goes for people on the social media. Russia has lost information warfare globally, but the regime is quite successful at home."

    The question is for how long.

    Cracks have appeared in the information fortress the Kremlin is building.

    A week after the invasion began, when it was already clear the war was going badly for Russian troops, Mr. Putin rushed to enact a law that punishes "fake news" with up to 15 years in prison. Media regulators warned broadcasters not to refer to the war as a war. They also forced off the air two flagships of independent media -- Ekho Moskvy, a liberal radio station, and Dozhd, a television station -- that gave voice to the Kremlin's opponents.

    Access to Facebook, Twitter, TikTok and most recently Instagram has also been severed inside Russia -- all platforms the country's diplomats have continued to use outside to misinform. Once spread, disinformation can be tenacious, even in places with a free press and open debate, like the United States, where polls suggest that more than 40 percent of the population believes the 2020 election was stolen from former President Donald J. Trump.

    "Why are people so surprised that this kind of widespread disinformation can be so effective in Russia when it was so effective here?" Ms. Thornton of the German Marshall Fund said.

    As the war in Ukraine drags on, however, casualties are mounting, confronting families in Russia with the loss of fathers and sons. That could test how persuasive the Kremlin's information campaign truly is.

    The Soviet Union sought to keep a similar veil of silence around its decade-long quagmire in Afghanistan in the 1980s, but the truth seeped into public consciousness anyway, eroding the foundation of the entire system. Two years after the last troops pulled out in 1989, the Soviet Union itself collapsed.
     
  14. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. It is the KGB who is the master of BS.

    Further, all the CIA guy did was give an assessment to Congress. The PBS article was not even about his assessment. It was just mentioned briefly at the start of the article.


    I'm not a fan of the Biden Administration, but they are hardly nutjobs.

    It's the KGB that is producing all the lies here.


    Russians know that everything that the Russian government says is BS and lies.


    No I don't. I already fully understand that the KGB are the ones who are lying.


    Understanding that the KGB is lying wasn't all that hard.


    No such ignorance. I am fully knowledgeable about the KGB and their lies.


    The KGB are the ones who manipulate information.
     
  15. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Your knowledge doesn't lie in what you think you know. It's the ignorance you show for the knowledge you don't know.
     
  16. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting it. I do appreciate it.

    When you look up Op Mockingbird and Op Paperclip, which I've provided on more than one occasion. It will assist you to understand that what you believe is false. the two Ops are not propaganda from the KGB or any other weird concept, it is factual and historical and explains a lot. From there maybe, you can fit some of the pieces of the puzzle together. However, I'm not that confident you'll be able to do that. As you're set in your ideologies that Russia is bad and Ukraine is good and there were never any Bioweapon labs, money laundering rackets or human trafficking done. MSM is used to brainwash the masses. Look it up, it's fact.

    A left-field question, do you believe in prophecies?
     
  17. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Here is a history/documentary lesson.

    Ukraine's Nazi Problem
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  18. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Propaganda comes from both sides and if you get your knowledge from one side only you’re going to get a skewed version of events. The aim of cutting through the propaganda is to look at both sides of the argument; concentrate on facts and remove the outright nonsense and opinions.

    The Soviet Union collapsed over three decades ago, there is no more KGB in Russia, just as there is no more Gestapo in Germany. Those days have gone.

    Even western propaganda isn’t denying there are Neo-Nazis militias in Ukraine. The available images and documentaries prove that. Even western media acknowledged the Russian forces at the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol were combing the underground bunkers for remaining Azov militia members. Western media knew as far back as 2014 that Ukraine had a big problem with Neo-Nazis.

    Churchill (and the allies) didn’t fight for ultra-nationalists like Stepan Bandera, they were fighting against them in what they regarded as the bigger of the two evils between Nazism and communism. Bandera’s followers (OUN) were heavily involved in the Jewish mass murders in Ukraine during WW2.

    Where have all the western media cheerleaders gone? The calls for foreign volunteers and mercenaries? The promise of arms supplies that would ensure Ukraine military victories? It’s not even in the news anymore and a deafening silence has descended.

    Ukraine is a former USSR backwater, the poorest country in Europe run by oligarchs. An estimated six million aren’t fighting in the streets as promised, they’re running both east and west to get away from the place. After this is over, Ukraine and what’s left of it will be divided up between the east and west. Western Ukraine will become another colony of the European Union and the east a buffer zone against NATO.

    I wrote an alternative explanatory article a little while ago about the propaganda that was going on. Believe it or not.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-alternative-ukraine-thread.600788/
     
    UntilNextTime likes this.
  19. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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  20. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    Folks, there is no more KGB and communism collapsed in Russia over 30 years ago. The threat to world peace is now from those shouting the west should attack Russia or China.
     
  21. Interaktive

    Interaktive Well-Known Member

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    China 51%
    Russia 49%
     
  22. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    51% and 49% of what? What has Russia got 49% of?
     
  23. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Changing the name to VHS or VCR or whatever doesn't mean that the KGB no longer exists.
     
  24. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Removing the outright nonsense means removing everything that comes from the KGB.


    That is incorrect. The KGB is alive and well. They change their name every few minutes, but they are the same diabolical organization that they always were.

    Currently they call themselves the VCR or VHS or something like that. There is a "V" in it.


    Fake news. KGB propaganda.


    They have not gone anywhere. They are still covering Russia's aggression.


    Such calls never existed to begin with.


    The arms are being supplied. They are being used to slaughter lots of Russians.


    That is incorrect. Russia's aggression against Ukraine continues to be covered in the news.


    They are no longer being run by oligarchs. They have a bright future as a member of the EU.


    What promise is this?


    Fake news.


    Joining the EU does not mean becoming a colony. The EU does not have colonies.

    It remains to be seen if Russia can hold the territory that they occupy given the rate that their soldiers are dying.

    When this is over, Russia will be an empty shell that will be unable to invade any NATO country.
     
  25. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I already understand that the KGB is lying.


    I've already done so. The KGB is lying, as they always do.


    That's just reality.


    I'm sure such things exist. They have nothing to do with Russia's aggression against Ukraine however.


    That is incorrect. It is the KGB that does the brainwashing.


    Of course not.

    It is possible to make educated guesses about the future in some cases, but I would never characterize that as prophecy.
     

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