Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Is it the gift of life or is it free choice which you deem evil, and by which you measure God thusly? It seems to me, that in free choice, God departs, leaving us with the blessing of life and autonomy. In Christianity, people mistakenly believe that damnation is punishment for rejecting the atonement. But the fact is that damnation is where we are all headed by our fallen natures and life of sin. And the atonement is an offering to save us from that certainty. If a road sign says, Cliff Ahead, it is not a trick to manipulate you or garner you attention, but a truthful warning to save your life. And if you don't heed the sign, and barrel off the cliff. It is not punishment, but the result of your own choice to ignore the sign. And if you heed the sign, don't you owe a debt of gratitude for whoever placed the sign? If mankind can care about one another's transitory lives, why can't our maker care about our eternal souls. How intoxicated, self absorbed, and bull headed must we be to deem ourselves no more than meat sacks.

 

Repeating nonsensical gibberish over and over is a sign of being lost - in a spiritual sense mate. Showing no ability to make sense of the ideas you put forth, unable to answer simple questions relating to your ideas such as

"What is the OT name of this God you call a Perfect Father"

 

It is by the claimed God's claimed actions and doctrines that I deem the God good or bad. Just as I judge everyone else.

If your God is hippy Jesus, sermon on the mount, I can see him as good. Of he is the fire and brimstone store, then no. And also no of he is about requiring and accepting the human sacrifice of one innocent volunteer to save others from damnation.

That could make sense if the one who put up the sign isn't the one who built the car to be prone to going off cliffs, and if safety meant swerving away instead of throwing an innocent pedestrian off the cliff in your place.

 

If plain English is nonsensical gibberish to you, perhaps the issue is on your end.

 

You are the one having trouble with "Plain English" -- when asked the OT name of the God you are referring to as "Perfect Father"

No need to project your status on others Friend .. when bereft of an answer to easy questions relating to your position .. which is being crucified ... yeeeeeooowwwwwch ..

 

I hope your beliefs work out for you.

 

Them's me final words, yeh.

 

So easy you give up on your God .. but, perhaps this is to be commended.

Title of a book .. "If you see Buddha on side of road - Kill him" point of which was - Make Guru unto no one ..

which in your case would include beloved HeyZeus .. forgive my term of endearment for the one you so easily passed on .. and can no more speak the name of your God .. So it is written .. So it Shall be done ..

 

RE: Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity
SUBTOPIC: Atonement.

REMEMBER: NCIS
RULE # 6 : NEVER SAY YOU'RE SORRY.

The greater bag of Gods and Demigods cannot atone for any wrong, Thiers, your's, any wrong. God's and Demigods are as good as they can get. The perfect are never wrong. If it becomes an issue, the Gods just adjust the laws of the universe until what the event, becomes right.

Regards, R

 

They don't boil down to might makes right, and are based on empathy and fairness. Yes, they do work out quite well.

 

Only if by "good" you mean whatever the God likes. If said God likes seeing puppies tortured then doing so is "good" by this definition. But I don't concur that might makes right.

 

As you would have it, is your choice.

 

The problem with your arguement is that you parse God into what you like and what you don't like. You have to take all of the religion to judge the religion.

In Christianity, God is the sermon on the mount (and I'll bet you don't understand what it means because its not all love and kindness as you probably think it is), but he is also "fire and brinstone".

In the Bible (OT and NT) there are 21 "God is.." statements. God is love, but also just, lawful, a judge, righteous, holy. Just like a parent to the child, there is love and kindness and also justice and judgement and punishment.

Its an all or nothing choice. The sermon on the mount and the golden rule come with judgement. In fact, the sermon on the mount and the golden rule *require* judgement.

 

Sure, but how about judgment based on empathy, fairness and actual ethics instead of authoritarian obedience to power? A LOT in the Bible for example is really messed up morally speaking, vicarious redemption as mentioned above being a big example, at the very core of the Christ concept.

Also, the golden rule is flawed. Should you really treat people how you like to be treated? Should you presume they enjoy what you enjoy? What if you are a massochist? Better to treat people as they like to be treated, if they deserve it.

And yes, religion can be A,B,C or all of the above.
And what in particular you say God is, what you say he/she/it/they demand and if you then worship and obey that particular version of God tells me a lot about what kind of person you are.

That's why religion matters.

 

RE: Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity
SUBTOPIC: Atonement.

Yeah... I cannot argue against the notion that there are many who like in that direction.

(COMMENT)

Remember that humanity has no standard model from which a comparison can be made between an action by a deity using a God Power and any action achieved by humans the limitations inherent to humanity.

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
Author C. Clark​

If a previously unknown power suddenly demonstrated an action so far advanced of humanity (Dyson Sphere or the capture of a Black Hole) that is beyond the imagination and comprehension (supernatural) of humanity.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

There are difficult issues and events in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, but to claim Jesus is morally messed up is a new one for me.

Christianity is judgemental (all religions are) but it is certainly not authoritarian.

You are presented with the belief and you decide whether to believe or not, nobody can force you to believe.

You are told how God wants you to live, but you are not forced to live that way. A believer tries to live that way because she believes, not because she is forced.

You get salvation because you accpeted Jesus and teh belief, not because you did the right deeds.

<>

The Golden Rule is a guide. It does not mean a psychologically ill person should treat people in a mentally ill manner.

Maybe you hould read about the Golden Rule.

<>

Christianity is a set of beliefs defined in the New Testament. You can pick and choose what you want to believe from the NT but then you are just creating your own new religion.

 

It is the Christ more than the Jesus that's morally messed up. Love your neighbour is great. Jesus as a hippy in contrast to Mohammed as a warlord is great. But vicarious redemption, the idea that the human sacrifice, the death and suffering of one perfect volunteer, somehow wipes clean your sin is very morally messed up.

First, you shouldn't be presumed damned in the first place. Infinite suffering or punishment for finite wrongs (if they even are wrongs; also debatable some of what the bible calls wrongs) is not justice. The punishment should fit the crime.

Second, if you DO deserve such extreme punishment, you should be held to it, and not let off the hook because someone ELSE suffers.

Yes it is. What's the first of the ten commandments? What's one of the most common themes, repeated over and over again in the bible? Obedience to power. Obedience trumping morality. Always obedience.

Thou shalt have no God before me. Obey your mother and father. Wives obey your husbands as husbands obey the Lord.

Abraham, show God you are prepared to murder your son to demonstrate your loyalty. Job, endure all this abuse and never stand up to it, so God can show off how obedient you are.

Nobody can force you to believe any authoritarian leader. The question is what pressure is exerted by them and by their authoritarian followers on nonconformists. Christianity has the hell/heaven concept. Christians are told in the bible to kill witches and not to be yoked to unbelievers. Christianity has a long history of hatred towards infidels. It is only recently, through secularism that most Christians have become tolerant.

She is both threatened and bribed. And also, note how Injeun kept telling me that God is good, but had no response when I asked why and if Christian morality reaches beyond the authoritarian concept of might makes right. I don't think it does.

Isn't it "Treat others as you wish them to treat you"? What if they don't like to be treated as you like to be treated? Doesn't require the massochist case (though that's a great example) to show a flaw here. There are many cases in which we won't want to be treated the same ways. I enjoy a good massage. You may not enjoy people touching you, etc.

The bible is a collection of writings, not the religion itself. The religion itself is what people believe and how they act, etc. Different Christians take different beliefs from the bible, treat different parts as literal, and ignore different parts. They also add different beliefs not found in the bible to their religious belief sets.

Many but not all Christians believe hell is literal fire and suffering. Some say it is just eternal separation from God. Not all Christians believe in the Trinity of the father, son, and holy spirit being one. Not all Christians believe that you shouldn't be yoked with unbelievers or suffer a witch to live. Not all believe homosexuality is abomination.

But I have yet to meet anybody calling themselves Christian who doesn't believe Jesus died for their sins, so they all do seem to agree on vicarious redemption; that somebody else's suffering can win them forgiveness for their own wrongs, rather than them having to accept personal responsibility.

They all seem to agree on that part, which is why I raise that particular case of immorality when talking generally about Christianity.

 

Deceivers you say, before I'm done you'll know who the deceivers really are but anyway the only thing you've shown to me on numerous occasions in the past are your biased opinions towards Got Questions. Accusing a Christian Ministry as deceivers doesn't prove anything because you're just spouting off your unsubstantiated biased opinions. FYI biased opinions are not based on facts, the only fact here is the fact that your biased opinions are nothing more than negative emotional outbursts on "something" you just don't like, on "something" you just don't want to believe and so you spout off your unsubstantiated biased opinions towards the Christian Ministry of Got Questions.

The Ministry of Got Questions are my fellow Christians who like myself have unwavering faith/belief in the Holy Bible/Almighty God/ and the Lord Savior Jesus Christ. They follow and keep in line with what's written in the Scriptures of the Holy Bible and so their articles have Biblical truths in them being that Scripture backs up what they're saying.

A while back you were quoted saying you follow Christ but obviously that can't be true, it was a sinful lie a deception by you the proof being all of your negative comments towards Christians and the religion itself. You claimed you were highly educated and self-taught...lol Sorry for laughing out loud.

You also said you learned about "The evils of Christianity" self-taught as well. In a nutshell that's your problem being..."self-taught"

Below are the quotes made by you.

The irony and sadness here is that you don't even realize that you are actually being deceived by your daddy...you know...that handsome devil guy, the father of all lies & deception. This "self-taught" is actually your daddy deceiving you into thinking the way you do. "liar", "deceiver", "divider", "accuser", "adversary", "lawless one", "destroyer" are all devil names that are his tactics.

Almighty God told us that the devil was violent and sinned, that his heart was filled with pride because of all his beauty, his wisdom was corrupted by his love of splendor so God banished him in disgrace from heaven and threw him down to the ground on earth.

We Read in Scripture:

16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. 17 Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. Your wisdom was corrupted by your love of splendor. So I threw you to the ground and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings. Ezekiel 28:16-17 NLT

15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths. Isaiah 14:15 NLT

The devil who is the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. Stay alert, watch out for your great enemy the devil, he is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. It appears he has already devoured you...such sadness!

We Read in Scripture:

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. 5 You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake. 2 Corinthians 4:4-5 NLT

8 Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8 NLT

Ok giff thanks for your response, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it and I hope you've learned something today regarding who are truly the deceivers and liars...maybe a little self reflection might help you see the truth, you claimed you self-taught yourself, see if you can self-reflect on yourself to learn the truth about yourself.

 

"Got Questions" are a bunch of deceivers .. as shown to you numerous times, but the blind they do not see. Why you run from the teachings of Jesus into the arms of these decievers I do not know but why are you trying to tar me with your failings.

"Following Christ and the sinful lie" Time and time again after being shown the teachings of Christ - you cover your eyes and run away .. accepting instead the sinful lies of the extreme fundamentalist deceivers at the Church of "GotQuestions.org"

"Negative Comments towards Christians" -- Jesus had negative comments about Jews and Chrisitians and I have shown you some of these comments .. some of which call out the Snake Charmers which you admire so much .. after which you run around crying NO NO NO .. running from the words of Jesus.

but, why are you now trying to demonize the messenger for revealing to you the message of Jesus .. It is not my fault Jesus said what he did .. nor my fault that you commit the unforgivable sin on a regular basis .. putting words in God's mouth .. and what some have termed "lying for Jesus" - usurping the position of the logos.

 

Hey Giftedone, do you consider yourself a Bible Christian? You adhere to the bible, as you interpret it, yes? Or is Mitt right that only his sect is Bible Christian?

 

I've already explained to you the difference between Catholics and Bible Christians but obviously you are still not understanding it at all. Maybe it was because I gave you too much to digest and it overwhelmed you into interpreting everything correctly. So I will try a different approach making it much shorter and precisely to the point.

Catholics view the Bible as having equal authority with the Church and tradition. While Bible Christians (Protestants) view the Bible as the supreme authority for faith and practice.

Did you get it now? If not, keep on reading the above statement over and over until it finally sinks in.

So I'm not saying that Catholics don't follow the Bible, of course they do but they also believe the Church and tradition has equal authority with the Bible, whereas Bible Christians (Protestants) view the Bible alone as the supreme authority for faith and practice. Hence the term/phrase "Bible Christians" is referring to Protestants only and not to Catholics.

I know the Christian religion can be very confusing at times for the outsiders the non-believers but that's why I'm here to educate my non-believing friends. Maybe someday some of you will become believers. That would be the wisest decision you'll ever make in your entire lives if you did that.

To spend eternity in that hellish place is not the way to go, that's why I myself personally have chosen paradise for my eternity to come.

We Read in Scripture:

Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl

Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said,

44 “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure that a man discovered hidden in a field. In his excitement, he hid it again and sold everything he owned to get enough money to buy the field.
45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant on the lookout for choice pearls. 46 When he discovered a pearl of great value, he sold everything he owned and bought it! Matthew 13:44-46 NLT

Ok thanks jolly for your response, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it and I hope I got you on the right track.

 

Or maybe it is because you were not clear.

You just mean Protestants? Why didn't you say so?

I know well enough. There is no "the Christian religion". There are many breeds of Christianity. They all agree on very little, except perhaps that Jesus is Christ, and that through acceptance of his death and suffering, your "sin" can be whiped clean and you can avoid eternal damnation. That's why when addressing Christianity most broadly I focus on the immorality that is vicarious redemption. Nothing should be forgiven or whiped clean for you because of somebody else's suffering, perfect or not, volunteer or not. If you truly feel that you are deserving of eternal damnation for finite wrongs (which is itself unjust), then stand up and take personal responsibility and accept what you say you deserve.

 

You bring up some good questions but far too many items for me to address so I will try this one.
The bible is a collection of writings, not the religion itself. The religion itself is what people believe and how they act, etc.


Christianity is defined by the New Testament, those writings were inspired by God and were written by
1 - the Disciples, people who literally walked with Jesus and were taught directly by Jesus
2 - Paul, who was taught by Jesus, walked with the Disciples, and whose teachings were compatible, reviewed and accepted by the Disciples
3 - Luke, who walked with the Disciples and Paul and recorded their experiences.

The Old Testament leads to the New Testament so the OT is not independent from the NT. The OT & NT form a unified story. The Bible sets the principles (doctrine) of Christianity.

There are 2 steps to address your comments. Step 1 - being saved/becoming a Christian. Step 2 - living as a Chrsitian.

Step 1 - A person becomes a Christian by accepting Jesus as saviour (being "saved"). That person has some knowledge of the Bible at that point, maybe from going to church, formal teaching, friends talking, maybe from tv.

Step 2 - living a Christianlife means living the way God wants. Its voluntary, its not required to be saved, but a saved person will want to please God and live in a Godly manner. It does not mean the person *will* live perfectly, they just do their best. A person who does Step 1 will naturally want to do Step 2. The Bible is clear - you will know a Christianby their deeds.

Simply saying "I am a Christian" does not mean a person is a Christian. It does not mean their actions are Christian either, some Christians commit adultery, or are homosexual, or are theives. People are not perfect.

Does the person follow or attempt to follow the Bible? The Bible is pretty clear, 99% of the doctrine is clear and well understood and has agreement among denominations and has since the 1st century. Even the Golden Rule is well understood if you take the time to read about it.

Even homosexuality is clearly understood from the Bible (its a sin, an abomination to God). There are people who don't like that part (just like you don't like the Golden Rule) and decide to ignore it and muddy the water with false arguements (such as the word "homosexuality" does not appear in the Bible, but thats a new English word and Greek and Hebrew use a different word for the same homosexual acts).

So - a person is a Christianwho accepts Jesus (Step 1) and makes a deliberate attempt to live a life acceptable to God (Step 2).
People can claim to be Christian (not do Step 1) but are not.
People can truly be Christian(do step 1), but fail in Step 2 by picking and choosing what they will do, or simply being an imperfect human. They are a Christianbut their acts are not Christian (they are contrary to the Bible).

 

And that's one of the few things people who call themselves Christians all seem to have in common. Vicarious redemption. I have yet to see anybody make a good case for the morality of this evasion of personal responsibility through the suffering of an innocent other.

And what God is said to want varies from Christian to Christian.

Voluntary? Maybe... but highly coerced. Threatened and bribed.

Not to you maybe, but they consider themselves Christian, and probably consider you not. That's the thing about this religion, it has many versions, many of whom say the others aren't real Christianity. Islam does the same.

Hardly. It contradicts itself repeatedly, and parts of it are ignored by almost everybody, while other parts are considered literal by some and figurative by others.

Yes, I can see homophobia in the bible. That's one of the parts many modern Christians ignore. Most also ignore the bits about allowing for slavery, and demanding the killing witches today.