I don't get Israel's plan so far...

So I can understand why their objective would be to destroy Hamas. But how exactly do you destroy an entity like Hamas? They fight when they want to fight. They hide when they want to hide. And when they hide they hide amongst millions of civilians. It's quite clear that Israel considers the lives of those millions of Palestinians less important than the goal of destroying Hamas, but even if you accept the cost of killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, will that really achieve the goal of destroying Hamas? Is destroying the civilians part of destroying Hamas, because you can't have one without the other? If you destroy civilians, doesn't that just make more extremists who hate you in the survivors? It just seems like an impossible problem for them, and their path seems to be towards ethnic cleansing in action, even if we give the benefit of the doubt that's not their intent.

 

Odd that you used the term "ethnic cleansing" considering the fact that Israel is the only place in the region with a diverse population. The surrounding region has been all but cleansed of Christians, Jews, atheists, gay people, non-Muslims, and those critical of religion/government.

 

You are absolutely right. All this is going to do is create far more extremists than there were before the slaughter of Palestinian civilians. You can't avenge slaughtered civilians by slaughtering far more civilians. It makes no sense, as it just ensures that this will happen again...and again...and again...

I totally support Israel defending themselves, but self defense is not a pass for the massacre of civilians and the destruction of their infrastructure. There are better ways for Israel to do this.

 

How so? Diplomacy failed. Hamas still lobs rockets into Israel while hiding hehind the civilians that elected them. How exactly is Israel supposed to play nice?

 

They are looking to the long run. It will kill a lot of innocent Palestinians. However, the hope is that in the long run there will be fewer deaths among both the Israelis and Palestinians if Hamas is eliminated. Hamas has presented the Israelis with no good alternatives. They can be systematically killed by Hamas while Hamas hides behind hostages or other innocent civilians or they can try once and for all to eliminate Hamas.

 

Certainly not by killing civilians. Let's say Hamas was somehow hiding out in Tel Aviv. Do you think Israel would go about killing Hamas in the same way they are now? That is how they need to go about this war, as if the city was an Israeli city and the people were Jewish Israelis. I bet their tactics would change drastically.

 

What replaces Hamas will be even more fanatical, as those whose homes and loved ones were destroyed by Israeli bombs become radicalized in greater numbers than there were before. We should know better by now in the USA than to support tactics like this in fighting extremists. We know by experience that tactics like this make more terrorists, not less. There are better ways to do this.

Are we ready to accept genocide as a solution? That is the only way tactics like this will work, ensuring there is literally no one left to carry on the fight. I for one would never support such a solution.

 

What do you propose Israel do? Allow themselves to be systematically eliminated? Hamas has presented Israel with no good alternatives and yet people tend to blame the Israels. What are these better ways to do this? The world wants to know.

 

That comment was more directed at how it looks. Cutting off vital non-military supplies to an area crowded with innocent people, bombing designated safe areas, bombing without any regard for civilian life - these things look like ethnic cleansing. Trying to kill the native population. Unless somebody really believes in Israel and gives them the benefit of the doubt, it's what it looks like. Israel's friends will assume their actual objective is just to destroy Hamas. But at what cost? Are they willing to slaughter so many civilians in this goal that it looks like they're as genocidal as their enemies?

 

The actual perpetrators were mostly gunned down in Israel. The remaining ones and those who planned it can be targeted and killed by Mossad and special forces over time. But more generally, Israel needed to find a way for these people so unlike them be not a part of their country, like a 2 or 3 state solution, rather than an apartheid system.

 

The ways that don't slaughter civilians. Do you seriously think I am in a position that gives me access to Israeli intelligence? I am not. What I do know, is that the answer cannot be a strictly military one. It has to be one that makes Palestinians trust that the Israelis truly have their best interests at heart. That may take generations with the damage that has been done so far in this campaign.

 

And what is the better way?

 

Israel is intent on a final solution to the palestinian problem. Netanyahu made that clear in his quoting of Isaiah: 'leave no man, women, infant or livestock alive.'

Basically Israel is going to do to the Palestinians what Hamas did to the Jews, just with rockets and artillery instead of machetes and rifles.

Evil on both sides slaughtering the innocents.

And theres not really much to be done about it. This was the innevitable result when we armed the creation of Israel in the late 1940s. But we could certainly stop giving their evil govts (both sides) the money and weapons they use to kill eachothers women and children. I say arm the civilians (on both sides) and let them figure it out from there.

 

You're basically claiming that the criminals are those who try to catch the culprits, not the culprits themselves hiding among civilians even though they're aware they put those civilians in danger. Cute.

If Israel doesn't go after Hamas now and allows it to become stronger, it puts the lives of millions of Israelis in danger. Do you consider the lives of those millions of Israelis less important than the lives of Palestinians?

There's no need to go after each and every member of Hamas. Israeli leaders have clearly stated that their target is the leadership of Hamas, and of course their infrastructure.

 

the poll is from 2020
40% in Gaza and 26% in the West Bank believe that a negotiated two-state solution should solve the conflict.

majority Palestinian don't want two state solution.

 

Israel was already in two or three state solution. Maybe it is time for the Palestinians to step up and now allow themselves to be used as human shields.

 

By not killing civilians. That is the number one way to shorten the conflict. Any other way will end in failure.

 

Not at all. But I think Josh77's point on how this would be handled differently if the perpetrators were in Tel Aviv is a good thought experiment to show you how they're not just trying to catch criminals. At worst, they're exterminating civilians. At best, they are showing disregard for the lives of civilians while killing criminals hiding among them because they view these particular civilians lives as less valuable.

 

OK. So Israel stop the war and don't bomb Gaza, that will stop any casualty.

Do you think that will stop Hams firing rocket in Israel?

 

It's actually not about what they want. I'm sure many want their land back. It's more about a workable solution for two incompatible peoples.

 

Bombing an active rocket site is fine. Ideally minimizing collateral damage, but that would be understandable. Bombing an apartment building full of innocent families and children because it might contain a Hamas leader is not.

 

Again, I ask if Israel stop the war today, will Hamas stop firing rocket in Israel?

 

No. But I didn't demand to stop the "war," I wanted a stop to measures that disregard civilian life such as cutting off water and food. Sure, that might kill some Hamas people, but also many innocent civilians. So your conclusion is to kill all the palestinians? What does destroying Hamas even look like? How would you know it's destroyed?

 

Terrorist organizations can never be destroyed. Weakened for a bit? Sure. But destroyed? No. The US knows a thing or two about that, now don’t we.

 

Aha , it’s not about what they want , what rest of the world wants. And then we wonder why they kill each other.