I don't get Israel's plan so far...

So who told you you could control bombs to such a degree that only terrorists underground die and no civilians above them?

 

The only solution at that point is extermination entirely. Israel wants the Gaza strip. If they have to force two million people into barbed wire fences they'll do it.

That is the goal. They're already forcing 1+ million to move to the south. If they can move that they'll do 2+ million. You have politicians last week or so telling the world they'll take in thousands to millions of Palestinians. Israel wants the entire land mass. There are even documents proving this to be the case.

You believe they'll sit back and watch a million or so die?

 

What are you even talking about now? I never said any such thing.

 

You are saying that 1 dead civilian for 2+ bombs dropped on Hamas in the middle of a densely populated city is horrendously bad.

Apparently you think you could drop bombs better. What do you think your record for 18,000 bombs dropped in 3 weeks would be? 10 civilians killed? Zero?

 

https://www.cbsnews.com › news › israel-war-hamas-says-gaza-death-toll-8000-idf-ground-troops
As Israel ramps up its ground war, Hamas says death toll in Gaza Strip ...
As Israel ramps up its ground war, Hamas says death toll in Gaza Strip has soared over 8,000 By Debora Patta, Agnes Reau, Tucker Reals October 30, 2023 / 8:52 AM / CBS News.

Sure, they'll rape women until they break their pelvis and then slaughter them,
They'll tie children to their parents with steel wire and burn them all alive.
They cut living babies out of the bellies of their mothers.
They will cut off limbs as a torture technique,
But they won't lie about civilian casualties!

Does it concern you at all that you are parroting the propaganda of the most vile group of subhuman animals on the face of the earth today?

You can repeat Hamas propaganda as a defensive war technique and virtue-signal as possessing greater moral humanity than others? That's quite the trick. You almost had me going there for a moment. Please accept my congratulations. Well played!

 

The thousands of bombs in a such a densely populated area.is the problem. You don't drop the bomb without eyes on the target, getting positive identification of the enemy, and ensuring there are no civilians present. IF there ARE civilians present, guess what? It is time for the infantry to earn that paycheck and clear it room by room, getting positive identification of the enemy before they pull the trigger. It is slow, methodical, and yes, dangerous, but it minimizes civilian casualties. And by clearing the city in smaller sections and subsequently occupying them, you only have to shift much smaller segments of the population around, avoiding the humanitarian crisis that we see now. It is slower, and less dramatic, but it will spare innocent civilian lives. Is it dangerous to the infantrymen? Yes, absolutely. But it is the role of the soldier to protect the innocent. That is what we do, whether it is our civilians, or civilians of the opposing side.

 

You can believe what you want. I will believe what I want.

 

You are out of your mind if you don't think the toll in human life is in the thousands. Does it concern you at all that innocent civilians are being killed as we speak? A civilian is a civilian, regardless of what side of the fence they are on.

 

There are always civilians present. Hamas makes sure of it. So you have intel that building A has Hamas troops in it, there are civilians who know damn good and well they are a target because Hamas is underneath them, and you’d just…let Hamas live.

ohhhhh right, you’d just send in your infantry in a bayonet charge to root them out, tunnel rat style.

Thank god you were never a general

 

Thank god you were never an infantryman.

 

Nope. Hamas was not founded to help Palestinians, it was founded to kill Jews. Their goal is an Islamic caliphate.

Don't believe me? Ask them.

Istanbul Declaration, 2009, signed by Hamas:

https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/19100/

How exactly would "truly treating the Palestinians as equals" prevent Hamas from waging jihad? Hamas isn't even a Palestinian organization at origin, its roots are in Egypt, it's an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, propped up by the Iranian regime. Why do you, or anyone for that matter, imagine to have found the perfect solution to a problem you know nothing about?

 

Hamas isn't going to survive this. Israel is going to defeat them one way or another. The question is whether it gets replaced by something worse because they radicalized so many due to Israeli brutality, or if they can establish a more sane government for Palestine that can work with Israel because Israel is truly looking out for the well being of the Palestinians instead of oppressing them.

This conflict will NEVER end with a military solution. It must be a diplomatic one, or the next Hamas or ISIS type organization will follow soon behind Hamas, starting the cycle of death and violence all over again. Both sides need to find a way to bury the hatchet.

 

You're repeating Hamas Propaganda with a moralizing superiority. And I did a search to see if you condemned the atrocities against Israel by Hamas, and guess what? I was unable to find any evidence that you have.

 

So I researched the depth of this conflict, and like all things: **** the British/UK. They basically weren't interested in the mandate, the UN lacked/still lacks teeth to enforce it and we're here now. A conflict of annihilation seems more inevitable than not.

 

I think they need to treat it as a crime instead of as a war. This should be approached with the mentality of a police department, and less so as a military, even if you use military strkes as part of it.

 

Before we continue this conversation, I need you to prove your premise - that Palestinian terrorists are radicalized due to Israeli brutality.

Let's start with a list of all terrorist organizations, throughout history around the globe, that were founded as a result of radicalization due to brutality against them. We'll then be able to tell if empiric evidence seems to confirm your premise that brutalization leads to radicalization.

 

"They"-- by which, you refer to Netanyahu, and the most radical Right government that Israel has ever had-- are not thinking long term. I have heard a number of people with intimate, and expert knowledge of this situation, say that Hamas is not a group, as much as an idea. The way Israel handles its response to the attack by Hamas, will provide the soil for the future growth of that idea, by showing how it thinks of, and treats, Arab peoples. On their present course, Israel will undo the progress of the Abraham accords, which were leading to Arab recognition of Israel, through their establishing diplomatic relations with the Jewish state, and acknowledging their right to exist. IOW, the ground for the opposite dynamic, that espoused by Hamas (& Iran), becomes richer, every day, with the spilled blood of Palestinian civilians.

Your concluding sentence is a false choice, to imply that the only way that Israel can defeat Hamas, is by showing disregard for Palestinian civilians. There are about 50,000 Hamas fighters, and over 2 million Palestinian non combatants. Please explain to me how 50 K can hold 2.3 million captive-- while staying hidden and protected from Israeli air raids. The choice is not between no Palestinian casualties, or their indiscriminate killing. It is between a reasonable degree of collateral casualties, or a Palestinian purge.

Nor will Israelis be "systemically killed by Hamas. Look at these stats, from the 2014 hostilities:

<Google Snip>
How many Israelis died in 2014 war?

During the 50 days of hostilities lasting from 8 July until 26 August 2014,
2,251 Palestinians were killed; 1,462 of them are believed to be civilians, including 551 children and 299 women. 66 Israeli soldiers and five civilians, including one child, were also killed.
https://www.unrwa.org › 2014-gaza...
2014 Gaza conflict | UNRWA
<End Snip>

2250 Palestinian dead, versus 71 Israelis.
1460 Palestinian civilians, versus 5 Israelis.
If you think that numbers like these, spell the extermination of Israel, there is something wrong with your math skills. In fact, I was just shocked to hear a NY University professor of Middle Eastern studies say that typically, before this attack, not a week, if even a day, went by in the West Bank, without a Palestinian being killed by radical Israeli settlers, as Israeli police are unwilling to protect the non-Israelis. This is one reason why the Apartheid term, has been applied to Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

<Google Snip>
How many Palestinians killed in West Bank?

From the start of 2023 through Oct. 6, 197 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank, according to an Associated Press tally.

But since the start of the war, Israeli security forces have killed more than 100 Palestinians in the West Bank, Palestinian officials say, and 1,500 more have been arrested.12 hours ago
https://www.npr.org › 2023/10/30
Israeli raids in West Bank's Jenin leave Palestinians wary - NPR
<End Snip>


So this means that Hamas been killing fewer Israeli civilians, year after year, than Israeli settlers have been lawlessly killing Palestinian civilians, in the West Bank. So where is the outrage, over that? And of course, whenever Hamas rockets do manage to get through the Iron Dome and kill an Israeli, the IDF insures that Gaza Palestinians pay an even heavier price.

It has been blatantly obvious, that Netanyahu has never been interested in serious negotiations with the Palestinians. The way he manages his eradication of Hamas, will be a clear signal of the type of neighbor, Israel intends to be: one interested in being a part of the community, or one with a wire fence and a sign reading "Stay out-- trespassers will be shot."

 

I don't know the sources of the reports, but I do know which side was laying down the far more deadly missile assaults. From there, common sense should indicate the more likely suspect.


Part B: Do you realize, Israelis are not innocent bystanders? That in the first 9 months of 2023, Israeli settlers, had killed 197 Palestinians, in the West Bank? See the preceding post, for the Associated Press tally, cited by NPR.

 

If the IDF was shelling an Israeli neighborhood because Hamas was suspected to be hiding in one of the homes, would you find that acceptable 'because they arent wearing uniforms'?

 

Do you think they should be armed so that they can do so?

You do realize many of them are small children, yes?

 

The civilians didn't kill the thousands of Israelis. Hamas did.

 

He's proposing a plan that would mean less dead civilians at the cost of more dead IDF troops. Same number of dead terrorists.

You could lean hard int he opposite direction and simply nuke Gaza, killing everyone there, risking not a single IDF troop.

Or you do could lean the other way, and risk some IDF troops to save civilian lives (which is what a military is supposed to do).

 

Actually, IDF already shelled a home in an Israeli kibbutz, and probably in other parts of southern Israel on October 7th, because Hamas terrorists hid there, and yes, I find it acceptable. The terrorists would have killed and kidnapped even more Israelis if the army stood down for fear of collateral damage.

 

A military is supposed to save the lives of citizens in its own country, not on enemy territory.

 

Their goal should be to sweep everyone out of Palestine and take it over and move their settlers in. That’s what their goal should be.