Where Does Your Money Come From (cont'd)

Sure. Bank notes today are a claim on government debt.

It is completely different. Deposits are a claim on a claim on government debt. Bank notes are a claim on government debt.

You're lying again. If the bank declines your swipe, then the store is not going to accept the swiping of your debit card for payment of a good or service.

So if the bank declines your transaction, then the store is still going to accept the swiping of your card as payment? That is a delusionally inaccurate representation of reality.

It's not going to accept your check or electronic check if either gets bounced by the bank.

It's totally accurate. A cash transaction requires no approval of a third party to complete. A claim on a claim on a claim transaction would require the approval of at least two third parties to complete. To deny this basic fact of logic demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of how money and banking work.

Sure. But it's not going to accept your check or debit card swipe as a form of payment if either gets bounced by the bank.

 

This is no different from your example of me walking into Best Buy with $1000 cash and you walking into Best Buy with $1000 in your bank account.

 

According to akphidelt, there is no difference between paying the dealer $4000 cash for the car and buying it with a declined debit card linked to a bank account held by an insolvent bank. LOL!

 

Dude, he is a biggest troll on the internet. Just do a quick google search with his username, it brings up countless threads with the same misleading, misinformation, and quite frankly utterly garbages. He is spamming every message boards with his craps every day. That what troll does in real life.

It's not that hard to figure out what kind of life he is having in Alaska, he must be lonely up there ya know, he badly need some attention, pampering and smarminess in here.... think he is looking at the wrong place.

And oh, he was banned from this site once.... with this rate he would probably get ban again soon .... LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Just look at this blatant lie....Bhwaahahahaaaaaaaaa

The dude is throwing (*)(*)(*)(*) against the wall and hope some of them would stick.

I've involved with banking sector for 10 yrs. Banks do not credit a full amount of the check when it's deposited. Assuming the check is >>> $100.00, banks would credit $100.00 to your checking, then the rest of the check when it is cleared.

Electronic transfer/deposit is cleared prior day, when it hits your account, you receive a full amount.

A liar is desperately grasping at anything to protect his sorry little ego. How sad!!!

 

Way to dodge the question. So the only difference in this scenario is that you went to the bank first to see if you could get $1000 before going to Best Buy to purchase the tv. There is absolutely no difference between paying for a tv with cash or your debit card. We are both transferring $1000 of ours to Best Buy and walking out with a tv.

Absolutely no difference other than the physical qualities.

 

I never said this. Stop lying!!

 

Transaction deposits are the modern counterpart of bank notes. It was a small step from printing notes to making book entries crediting deposits of borrowers, which the borrowers in turn could "spend" by writing checks, thereby "printing" their own money.

MMM pg 3

Anymore lies you care to share with us?

You are not understanding what money is. Go figure.

Just like if the bank denies you to get cash, you aren't going to have cash. What's the difference?

You know this is not something I would say. Not even going to respond until you stop lying through your teeth again. You are nothing but a liar.

Who cares!!!!! That's what money is... a claim. When I walk in to the store with cash or a debit card, I walk out with goods and services. If the bank is insolvent and denies my debit card than I don't walk out with goods and services. If a store didn't accept cash, I don't walk out with goods and services. No difference what so ever. The fact you are prying on the fact that an intermediary is used is hilarious!

I can walk out with goods and services by giving them a check whether it bounces or not. They accept the check just like they accept cash. If they don't accept checks than I have to use my debit card or get cash. This is very very simply stuff bro. Just because there is a small chance that the bank is insolvent and my debit card gets declined does not change the fact that I can walk in to a store with a piece of plastic, transfer MY money to the store, and then walk out with a good or a service.

Basic basic stuff!! The fact you can't understand it is a telltale sign of your intelligence.

 

I dodged nothing. The method by which I obtained the cash before walking into Best Buy is totally irrelevent to the scenerio.

This is an absurd claim. When I withdraw from the bank, I am attempting to redeem all or part of my claim on the bank's reserves, ie. $1000, in conversion of my deposit to cash. At no point in your debit card transaction is the deposit money ever converted to cash.

You're making the logical fallacy of assuming that just because the net result is the same most of the time, that the net result will always be the same, and that the processeses to acheive the net result are identical. This is simply not true; you know it's completely false and illogical, and yet you continue to profess things which you know to be not true. Why?

Why do you continue to profess this when you know it's not true? There is 10x the amount of deposits than there is cash. That's more than just a physical difference. That is a mathematical difference which logically means that they are not the same thing at all.

 

That is exactly what your position is. You're saying there is zero difference (other than a physical difference) between swiping your debit card and paying in cash.

 

The point of the example is just to show you how absurd your claim is about deposits not being money, me not transferring anything, and deposits not being equivalent to cash. The fact is Best Buy accepted your cash and my transfer of electronic money in exchange for a tv. The only difference is you went to the ATM machine to exchange your deposits for cash instead of just transferring the money electronically.

Of course not, because deposits are equivalent to cash. Deposits are an electronic form of "cash". Like I said... Currency in the hands of the public + Deposit accounts = Money.

So the miniscule chance that your bank is insolvent and your debit card gets declined means that paying for cash and walking out with a tv is different than paying for it by transferring electronic money via a debit card? LOL!!! I have never heard such uneducated babble in my life.

Lol, fine there is also a quantity difference in deposits and cash. Don't get how that matters, but I don't get much of the crazy things you say.

 

I said nothing about being able to walk out with a product if your debit card gets declined and you know that. You are simply trolling like you always do. So your entire theory boils down to the slight chance your bank is insolvent and your debit card gets declined? Lol.

So what about the 99.99% of times it does not get declined, you transfer your money from your account to their account, and you walk out with a good or a service?

You are telling me there is a difference between you and I going to Best Buy to get a tv with cash or a debit card and both walking out with a tv?

Is the TV Best Buy gives me different than yours because I pay with a debit card?

 

This doesn't have anything to do with the point I made that you are supposedly rebutting.

Troll response.

You're being vague. What do you mean "What's the difference?" Are you asking about the difference in result, or difference in process to acheive that result?

I didn't say you said that. That is the only logical conclusion I could reach about your beliefs based upon the inaccurate point you made.

Any rational, logical thinking economist.

Depends on how you define "money". Sometimes it's a claim, other times it's a claim on a claim. It depends on your definition of "money".

There is a huge difference. Stores will always accept cash. It's legal tender. Unless you're talking about the scenerio in which the dollar hyperinflates and becomes worthless. But that will never ever happen, according to you.

Sure, stores accept checks as methods of payment becuase they trust that they won't bounce. But this is totally irrelevent to debit card use. It has absolutely nothing to do with the argument I am making. You're setting up strawmans again. Debit card transactions are declined immediately if the funds are not available.

Your random personal attack is noted.

 

We established thousands of posts, weeks ago that deposits = money according to some calculations of money supply. I've repeated this point many, many times and you continue to claim that I believe that deposits != money. It's safe to conclude that you are just trolling at this point.

You're not transferring anything. The bank is. Any rational, logical person would not argue with this simple fact. But you are a troll, so I would not expect that to happen.

Deposits are not cash. You have already admitted that there are up to 10x the amount of deposits than there are cash. That means that it is mathematically impossible for deposits to = cash. Somebody who claims to be as mathematically and logically efficient as you would never make such a claim. But since you are a troll, you will continue arguing points and backingtracking on things which you have already admitted to not being true.

They accepted your electronic money this time. If your bank declines the transaction, they won't accept it.

It's good to see you are finally admitting that there is a difference between paying in cash and transferring money electronically. Now we are starting to make some progress. Now we can get on working on why the processes are different and why the outcomes are not necessarily the same.

Not only that but it has to be authorized by a third party. There is no third party authorization required for a cash transaction.

It's called logic. Your points are devoid of it if you believe that there is zero difference between the processes and results of swiping your debit card and paying in cash.

That means they are not the same thing. What is so hard to understand about this.

 

I don't even get what you are arguing about anymore. Seems you are just arguing to argue with out even having a point. Explain to me exactly what your point of this drivel is?

So because there is a miniscule chance that your bank is insolvent and your debit card gets declined, your deposit account does not serve the same function as cash? Hmmmm... interesting viewpoint, lol

 

It's the only reasonable conclusion I can reach. If you think about this logically, your claim that paying in cash and paying by debit card are "identical", then that means the following two things must be true:

1. The processes by which the transaction is completed are identical in both cases
2. The net result is always the same

We know point 1 fails, because paying in cash does not require the approval of a third party (the bank). Paying in cash does not involve transferring deposits, which are different forms of money than cash.
We know point 2 fails because if the transaction is not approved by the third party, then you don't walk out of Best Buy with a TV. The guy with the cash will ALWAYS walk out of Best Buy with a TV.

So in order for you to say that they are "identical", that means you must believe that points 1 and 2 do not fail. That means you logically must believe that deposits = cash and that Best Buy will accept your declined card as a form of payment. You know that both of these are not true, and yet you continue to profess these false claims!

Since you dispute my claim that you believe that Best Buy will accept your declined payment, I can only conclude at this point that you are a troll.

A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

It's not my "theory". It's fact-based logic. See above.

Then the net result is identical to if you pay in cash. The process is still different.

There is always a difference because the process of paying in cash is radically different than the process of paying through debit.

Illogical strawman presented by a bored Alaskan troll.

 

The point of the discussion at this point is to convince you that deposits != cash and that paying through debit is not the same as paying in cash. I can see why you have been easily confused because you're constantly making random off topic points that are diverting from the subject matter, and the natural flow of your faulty logic has distracted you from focusing on the topic at hand. Tends to happen when you troll too much.

Most of the time it does, because the net result is the same. When the result is not the same, it does not serve the same function as cash.

It would be an interesting viewpoint...if it accurately reflected my beliefs. Since you are a troll, you resort to putting up illogical inferences of my position.

 

Lol, let's try this again. If we both go to Best Buy right now, you have $1,000 in cash, I have $1,000 in a deposit account. We both are buying a tv. You pay with cash and leave with the tv. I pay by swiping my card (and it's accepted, lol) and leave with a tv. You leave home with $1,000 less. I look at my account and I have $1,000 less.

We both have a tv. What is the difference?

 

The difference is the method by which the transaction was made. I paid in cash. You had to swipe your card, get the approval of the bank, and the bank had to transfer money from your deposit account to the recipient deposit account. My cash transaction involved no deposit account transaction and no approval from any third party.

 

Yes but there is no difference to you or I. We both walked in to a store with the intention of getting a TV and we both walked out with a TV. The store accepted your cash and accepted my electronic transfer.

The process in which the bank transfers my funds to the recipients account does not involve me or the store. The fact that banks have to transfer reserves amongst each other does not involve me or the store.

Cash and electronic transfers are both accepted in exchange for goods and services... which is why they are both considered money. It doesn't matter how many levels of claims there are, it only matters what is accepted for an exchange of goods and services.

 

Who cares about our individual perspective? It has absolutely nothing to do with what's actually occuring.

Wrong a million times over. If the bank cannot complete the process to transfer funds to the recipient's account, then it completely involves both you and the store because the transaction will not occur.

Repetetive and wrong. See above.

Sure.

Totally wrong. It doesn't make a difference to the end result most of the time. The processes to make the transaction are always different. The fact that deposits are a claim on a claim means that the first claim has to be redeemeed by the bank. Cash being just a claim means that it does not have to be redeemed by any third party.

 

Sure it does. What is the action YOU perform in this. You are not a bank.

Because I don't actually have money.

But if the electronic transfer of funds is not declined and I walk out with a TV, nothing is different. We both walked in the store with the intention of getting a tv and we both walked out with a tv by simply transferring something of ours that the store was willing to accept. There is absolutely nothing different about this.

 

My action is that I swipe the card and thank my lucky stars that the bank approved it, knowing full well that I might go to swipe it tomorrow and get declined becuase my bank went insolvent.

Or because the bank doesn't.

The process to get the TV was different. You had to get approval from the bank.

The net result was coincidentally the same in this specific case. If your debit card transaction was declined, the result would have been very different.

 

If you fear the bank will become insolvent so badly than don't use the bank. Just carry cash around. I for one have never been denied the ability to transfer my funds from my account to another account and to walk out of the store with the goods or services I desire.

And I got approval... so now what's different?

But it wasn't declined and we still both walked out with a tv. So what is the difference?

 

Lucky you. Be glad you weren't part of one of the hundreds of banks that have failed over the past few years.

The process by which the transaction was completed.