The Greatest Threat to the Church Today...

The greatest threat to the Church today is blindly following human created dogma at the expense of science,knowledge and species maturation.

 

where is the actual word of Allah (God) in this picture?

is his will protected in all of this?
is his message is intact and implemented fully?

it's not what we want but what Allah wants counts.
but that is lost in council decisions and made-up doctrines.

that rises the question:
why would God speak to us in non-literal forms?
or in rhetorical questions or in implied declarations?

why let humanity take on and "interpret" his words
whilst jesus (pbuh) himself has been sent to correct
the already distorted beliefs of jews?

man becomes what then?
by speaking on behalf of Allah?

christianity and islam are close, has to be.
because we worship the same Allah.

bible and torah have been mentioned in the qur'an for us to see
the pattern, the evolution of the religion of Allah. cross-check by
holding on the qur'an, the last message, as the reference point.

but whoever call themselves christians use too much of their heart
and have forgotten that they also have the reason to see and adjust,
with the permission of Allah.

church inserted the creation in the oneness of Allah.
Allah does not come with theories and doctrines.
he is one.

why make things complicated? 1x9/3+5½-7 = 1

we don't even know what our souls are made up,
but you seem to know God's?

we should respect the boundaries.
watch our ego manipulating our mind and playing tricks at us.
sheitan... i won't even get into that.

how is christianity any different than ancient pantheons?
and the salvation method?

because of that methodology, all this life becomes meaningless.

traditions, comfort zones and social environment shouldn't be
enough to ignore these questions.

people become dull when the subject is belief, regardless
the religion. you can make someone believe anything by using
love or by exploiting his/her good intentions.

that's my opinion of course.

 

There isn't anything complicated about it.

The old way of dealing with sin is a blood sacrifice. The concept of grace is that Jesus sacrificed himself, offering the blood of God, to cleanse ALL sin.

What happened in the old days if you sinned but could not afford a sheep to sacrifice? You were stuck with your sin. Are the poor and destitute beyond God's Love?

That is what grace is, and the atonement is what follows. We cleanse our sins now through humbleness, admitting them before God, and repetenance, and acknowledgement of the wrongness and a genuine desire to overcome the sin, the sacrament is what allows the cleansing of sin - of forgiveness.

Its teh acknowledgement that none of us is perfect, but that honesty and humbleness are a requirement to make ourselves better humans. We will make mistakes ... and that is OK.

Its not complex, people just make it needlessly complex.

Besides, Islam is every bit as based in feeling as Christianity is. How do you know the Prophet is a true Prophet? You know. Same thing

 

Yes, ALL Christians do this

Is there some reason so many atheists think that only they understand science?

 

During most of Christian history it has been understood that the stories are teaching narratives ... about the nature of God, man's relationship with God.. disobedience, redemption and mercy..

The stories illustrate these truths.. they are NOT literal history..

Muhammed may not have realized that.

 

This is an interesting question but I think a better one is "what is the actual word of God.

One can have faith that the Bible or Qu'ran contains some of Gods inspiration but there is really no way to know.

The Bible was composed over centuries and in the NT there were many changes, books added and removed, phrases added and removed.

The Qu'ran was supposedly composed over 25 years. Whats this ? Did the Angel only give Muhammud a few words a day ?

We have no idea what Allah wants. Even if we believe in scripture if it is in non literal form who does the interpretation ?

Now you are on to something !

No human speaks for God .. not the Pope, nor Imam's, and certainly not those finatical folks "speaking in tongues" and so forth.

 

my follow up questions (and i asked this many times,
but i couldn't get a real answer) is:

if you are an overall honest person and believe in the trinity...
if you go ahead and kill 1000 man for no reason or for a reason that
makes sense to you.

what is your situation according to the religion of christianity?

the message.

 

Redemption and forgiveness are possible for ALL men. Even the worst of us.

Remember what I wrote, humbleness and repentence. If you kill 1,000 men in battle and are an ogre you are a bad man. So what happens one day when you are walking around and you realize that what you are is a terrible human being?

What then? You have humbleness. Next comes redemption. And part of that is seeking to heal the wounds your sin has caused. You cannot heal the wounds of death. It is not possible. But if, as Jesus states, you go forth and sin no more, if the change of heart is genuine .... if he turns his life around and begins to heal rather than harm?

The example of this is John Newton. A man who admitted that he enslaved thousands of other men ... and yet, he is the author of one of the most chershed of Christian songs, "Amazing Grace."

That is the power of forgiveness. We are not condemed by sin - that is grace.

Its easy when our sins are little white lies, but God forgives all sins - even if he does not alleviate their consequences.

What do Muslims do with a genuinely repentant man?

We say the same thing

 

It is "the message" that makes me doubt.

Every second page of the Qu'ran we find threats of eternal punishment.

Do this and be burned, do that and suffere everlasting torment, Don't believe this or be thrown into the lake of fire .. and so forth.

If God was really that concerned do you not think he would just show up and say .. Obey this .. and not convey messages in riddles through unauthenticated sources ?

Way way back in history folks figured out that religious beliefs and principles were a great control mechanism. Controlling the raging masses was normally a high priority back then as it is today.

Egyptian Pharaoh's were considered half man/half God. The idea of Maat was one of order, justice and so forth. If a person was found wanting at the end of days they were fed to a monster and that was it.

As control though religion evolved it was found that the greater the threat the greater the control. Ideas of hell in the afterlife evolved.

Christianity took it to the next level incorporating the idea of everlasting punishment.

Islam really rachedted up the "fear factor" by threatening eternal punishment and torment on every second page.

What you have is the evolution of Religion as a means of Control, not a divinely inspired message.

 

Unless I am mistaken .. punishment in Islam is not eternal.. Consider that Adam and Eve were forgiven by God and there is no Original Sin.

 

Apparently the "eternity factor" is a matter of debate but it matters not to the central premise - that the "fear factor" was really ramped up in the Qu'ran.

Here is one passage from a quick google search:

 

Oh piffle.. Check out the death penalty offenses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy..

 

Indeed. Judaism and Christianity took the fear factor up a notch.

The central premise here is that such religious threats served as a very good control mechanism.

This lesson was obviously not lost on Muhammad as the Qu'ran issues threats on almost every second page.

 

holy books are not best sellers.
you are presenting the bible as a movie trailer.

Allah does not make up stories to lighten up our minds.
he tells things as it is. up to you to take it or leave it.

the author of the qur'an is not muhammed (saw),
thus he didn't need to realize any theories to receive
a revelation from Allah.

from what i understand jesus (pbuh) has payed
all of mankind's sins.

from islam's perspective no one pays for no one's bad deeds.
you are facing them alone.

Allah and you.
nothing or no one in between.

no pre-paid bonus points.
we are all created with a beautiful fitrah,
then this life is a test.

we turn to Allah and ask for forgiveness.
unless we commit shirk, we expect to be forgiven.

here is the nuance that makes the whole difference:
in the two abrahamic religion (judaism and christianity) the ways
of salvation is 100% guaranteed. which means; jews are saved
(even if they are atheists) because they claim to be chosen.
christians are 100% saved because they believe in jesus christ
trinitarian notion.

these are the doctrines that prevent self-improvement and
elevation of the soul... the notion of salvation making sure
that you are saved does not overlap with the reasons of our
existence. you must understand... the sinning is a portion of
why we are here... but it locks or unlock many doors depending
on how you see it.

i have no objection on the endless mercy of Allah.
how can anyone have?

if Allah were to punish us immediately there wouldn't be one single
person walking on the face of the earth.

but we must stop thinking on behalf of Allah.
and be mere servants, following his guidance.

beyond this point, it is following own desires and thoughts.

even bible scholars accept that the bible is altered?

too many diverse information stirred in your post.

i understand your point of view.
but these are not the facts.

when looking at the evolution of religions you must have
a frame of reference. were they evolved? or were they
distorted countless times?

in history or in anything for that matter you must see the
pattern, if there is a pattern and then also look for something
out of that pattern -if there is-.

the message has always been the same.
this planet have seen 124,000 to 224,000 prophets, according to
a hadith... thus the message has been delivered over and over to
all nations in the past.

the message was one:

there is only one god, worship him.
do not think you are here on your own.
do not think you've come here for no reason.
follow his guidance, this low-life is just a test.
and so on... ​

but the distortion has been the same too:

polytheism.
idol worship.
pantheons.
multiple gods, sons, etc...​

compare christianity, judaism, pre-islamic era religions
and ancient pantheons with islam.

islam is the only perfect monotheistic religion in the world.
the only one that doesn't mingle the creation with the creator.
there is no other.

that should tell you something.

the truth is always one.
like Allah.

 

There is a mindbending lack of focus in your post. Repeating religious mantras over and over again does not give support for your argument nor address comments that I made.

 

in my opinion the discussion lacks empathy if the parties
are unable to switch their perspectives.

i said i understood your points and then presented the idea of pattern,
versus your idea of religion being a control mechanism made by man.

this was the core of your arguments.
unless you get that part how else will you get the notion of
"believing in the unseen" or "hell".

i cannot address all your points at once.

 

Well I don't see it that way…and there are proofs that are happening that are doing just that. It has not come to that yet..the closing of churches but it will sooner than later…heres why.

The hate crimes law is one nail in the coffin. It provides protection to minorities groups above others. And one of these minority groups are gays. These hate crimes laws turn normal citizens into criminals because they lose rights under these laws. It is happening all around the world. I will give you a few examples.

http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/england-police-ban-bible-in-salt-light-coffee-house/

So even if you own your own business…and you want to display the bible…verses…or on video…it is against the law in England.

Here is one that bans any speech that says anything negative against homosexuals.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/nl030930.htm

http://www.wnd.com/2003/02/17314/

And its in America too.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSN5WySy-wQ"]The Criminalization of Christianity - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htqksv-9Nik&feature=related"]Censoring the Church, Seg. 3 - YouTube[/ame]


Which of the following actually happened in America ?

A man is fired for displaying Bible verses in his work space.
A judge orders a mother not to teach her daughter anything that could be considered "homophobic."
High school students are trained to roam the halls in search of verbal "offenses" to report to law enforcement officers.
A pastor faces a prison sentence for reading from the Bible.

Guess what…all them have.

This is not extreme thinking and this will escalate…mark my word.

Here is a review of Folgers book that gives exact examples of what has been going on already.

http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2005...minalization-of-christianity-by-janet-folger/

 

but they are not literal right?
just made up personas and places to teach us... what?
noah's (pbuh) flood, moses's (pbuh) red sea event etc...
all of that not real, you claim.

is it hard for Allah to create all these happenings that are
written in his books?

for your information, when Allah speaks of parables,
he makes sure that he is talking about parables.

even in the altered documents, you might see that.
example: http://bible.cc/luke/19-11.htm

 

Do you know the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf?

Does it have to be REAL to teach a lesson?

 

Thank God these "offenses" are overturned in the courtrooms, thanks frequently to the ACLU who defends Christians rights as often as it does the atheists.
You need to relax. You are perfectly safe.

 

I do see the other side but just do not see anything compelling in reciting Bible or Qu'ran verses as justification for anything.

I am not saying that one has to "prove" that it was God.

What I am suggesting is that the content of the literature and the story surrounding the creation of that literature does not to me suggest that the complete work is of God.

The fact that the Qu'ran even mentions the OT and the NT should be proof enough because now one needs to deal with the inherent contradictions between 3 religions. As if the OT and NT contradictions were not enough.

You talk about a pattern. Darn tootin there is a pattern. A pattern of manipulation by man using religion for secular purposes.

Similar source material - Go figure, it would be a pain to make this stuff up all on ones own.

When looking at these works as a whole I always ask myself. Does this sound like something an all powerfull God would say or do ?

Given the large number of conflicting and illogical ideas it just does not seem to fit with the idea that a God would have dictated all of it.

To this you say things like ..

What kind of argument is this ? I do not even want to get into numerous ways to bust this argument apart. Surly you can see how this is not an argument for anything.

Some book says there has been a bunch of prophets (do we have their names and individual revelations ?) and even if we do so what ? Shouldn't the idea that these folks are spouting the same message be your first clue that perhaps these folks are reciting the same tired mantra.

Its a statment of nothing - "many folks have come and delivered the message to many nations" and good for them if indeed it is even true.

Could the writer of the hadith not come up with a more exact number ? 124,000 -224,000. Obviously God was not involved in the writing of this Hadith because he would have stated something to the effect of X number have come so far and Y number will be sent in the furture.

Presumably God would have some idea of the exact number. If it is not inspired by God then the fellow is just a quack throwing out numbers.

Its the lack of questioning that I find disturbing. I find it even more disturbing when the orthadoxy of a Religion discourages questioning of the religion and issues fatwa against folks that do.

The purpose of the "threats" as discussed earlier is inlarge part to discourage questioning. Any study of mind control techniques goes into this in detail.

It is very unlikely, on a probability basis, that a child who is filled with "fear of eternal torture" will seriously question core religious beliefs. This child will not have a very difficult time, for subconsious reasons, even considering information that is contrary to those core beliefs.

Once again. Does it make sense that an all powerfull God would really be that invested in having complete adoration of humans such that if they do not follow all the rules they will be punished in eternity ?

Second .. if the God did want this then why would that God not just make it clear by showing up from time to time rather than send a bunch of highly suspect Prophets ?

Third .. might that God not actually put some prophecy of some kind it his works that was actually verifiable beyond coincidence and doubt if he can not be bothered to show up in person ?

Fourth .. would this God really expect folks to believe even though there is no verifiable proof of his/her existence ?

Fifth .. If (4) is true then why did God give man a questioning mind to begin with. Why was man given reason if not other than to use it. And why if when I use that reason would it seem like God is being naive to think that folks would believe in these tall tales without proof. Especially given that there are so many of these tall tales out there.

Six .. I await your valid rational that shows the Qu'ran was written by God.

 

And how would YOU prove or disprove that it is not the revealed testimony of Allah?

Go ahead, prove Mohammed was lying - because that IS what you are saying.

 

I do not seek to prove or disprove such a rediculous thing. That would be as silly as claiming that one can be 100% certain he wasnt lying.

The claim that is being addressed is whether or not the proof is in the message.

If it is I would like to see it.

 

Im interested in you proving your claim that Origen and Dionysius believed Jesus and God were not of the same substance. You made the claim. Show by what they said that you are correct.

Quantrill