Oh...I agree with you. Even on this forum we have Protestant/Catholic conflicts. Christians have persecuted each other for the rather minor differences they do have. But that isn't my point. My point is that the BASIC FOUNDATION and the message is the same. The Trinity. Where the BASIC FOUNDATION of the different Jewish sects are entirely separate from each other---completely different religions all under one name of Judiasm. The message differs according to how man has decided it would be. And this opens the door to Atheism.
Officially reliable stats are hand to find. IMO - people on this side of the pond with our much lower Church /Synagogue attendance than US , also have a higher percentage of atheist/agnostics + religious indifference than America .
Remember that the next time you talk to yr Israeli Jewish settlers friends - in there pursuit to displace /dispossess /ethnic cleansing their non-Jewish Palestinians cousins. (wink)
Apart from the biblical account of Jewish civil wars - most of the times they lacked military power to do so , but they did'nt stop them,(as individuals ) from stabbing each other in the back , has it ? Now that they've got military power , they too busy defending their ill-gotten gains. Worse violent conflicts nowadays are between Israeli Police and religious Jewish extremists. . .....
Because a lot of people are ignorant of what 'agnostic' actually means and think it's a centrist position in the theist-atheist dichotomy.
The same as Christianism. In most of Occidental countries except USA the numbers of atheists are similar to the Jews presented in this thread. In Europe the range of atheists is something like 30% to more than 60%, depending of the country. In Spain, for example, the numbers of atheists is close to 50%. So, maybe we should check how many Jews are well educated. Because what increases the number of atheists is the education, the culture.
Right, your BASIC FOUNDATION is something decided upon by the Council of Nicea, great. In the end, by your own admission man decided upon the trinity and your BASIC FOUNDATION isn't even in the Bible at all. Great job. Way to project onto the Jews what your religion really is, man-made.
This post was a very dishonest one. An example of bad character. We aren't debating religion and how bad you think it is. We are discussing why there are so many Atheists in the Jewish community. But your post shows that instead of "thinking" you want to "react" in a non-rational manner...off topic....which is typical.
The point is, your suggestions about the Jewish faith apply to Christianity as well. Apart from the irony of this projection, it also means that this can not be the reason for atheism to be particularly widely spread amongst Jews. So, the comment was actually on topic and your accusations...well, off.
Perhaps it was sort of on topic. I was jarred....because we were talking about Jews and Atheism. And suddenly it seemed we jumped to a debate on Christianity. But even if he was on topic...and you ignore that Jesus Christ is the trinity and the head....Christianity has a pretty cohesive message. Where Judiasm goes all over the place. Because its created over and over.
Try to stay on topic. This isn't about Palestine/Israel conflict nor is it going to turn into a thread about your bigoted remarks and generalizations. Thanks
Dishonest? I'm hardly being dishonest, just pointing out when the doctrine of the Trinity was created and solidified. It isn't in the Bible, check for yourself. On top of this, I'm really pointing out that Christianity is just as splintered as Judaism and Islam are. They all have sects which disagree with one another in fundamental ways.
I do apologize for reacting. I tried to edit but got some sort of dns bad connection thing. But you are wrong. Christianity doctrines differs on things---but stays true to basic tenents. But Judaism has several branches considered valid Jewish doctrines that are completely different religions, different foundations....different everything. Judaism is not on message--and it has to illicit some waryness--which leads to someone dropping the faith and perhaps simply keeping the traditions. I'm not an expert of course---but I've made attempts to understand---and its confusing as hell---one branch relating not at all with the other.
This is a start: Orthodox - Orthodox Judaism is a formulation of Judaism that adheres to a relatively strict interpretation and application of the laws and ethics canonized in the Talmudic texts ("Oral Torah") Conservative Judaism (also known as Masorti Judaism outside of the United States and Canada) is a modern stream of Judaism that arose out of intellectual currents in Germany in the mid-19th century and took institutional form in the United States in the early 1900s. Reconstructionist Judaism is a modern American-based Jewish movement based on the ideas of Mordecai Kaplan (1881–1983). The movement views Judaism as a progressively evolving civilization.[1] It originated as a branch of Conservative Judaism before it splintered. The movement developed from the late 1920s to 1940s, and it established a rabbinical college in 1968. Rabbinic Judaism or Rabbinism has been the mainstream form of Judaism since the sixth century CE, after the codification of the Talmud. Rabbinic Judaism gained predominance within the Jewish diaspora between the second to sixth centuries CE, with the development of the oral law and the Talmud to control the interpretation of Jewish scripture and to encourage the practice of Judaism in the absence of Temple sacrifice and other practices no longer possible. And apparently new types are even being put into place in recent times. And according to Wiki (our convenient friend): In modern times, Judaism lacks a centralized authority that would dictate an exact religious dogma.[21][42] Because of this, many different variations on the basic beliefs are considered within the scope of Judaism.
First of all, rabbinic Judaism isn't a "branch" of Judaism. It is Judaism, and had been since the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. Second, the differences between Orthodox and Conservative Judaism is restricted to difference in application of halakah, and would be pretty much unnoticeable to just about everyone who isn't a Jew. And the difference between Reconstructionist and the others is very vague, such as the idea of a Jewish "people", but again would be pretty much unnoticeable. As far as I know (and I've done considerable studying over the last several years) the only "new types" are Christian groups trying to co-op the name, such as "Messianic Jews" and "Jews for Jesus". And all wiki is pointing out is that, unlike the Pope and the Catholic Church, Judaism doesn't have an over-arching religious authority. There is no high priest or head rabbi that rules over all Jews and proscribes mandated beliefs. Which would mean that Judaism operates the same way as 95% of the world's Christian denominations.
I do realize this, but the question was why only Jews in America seem to have unusually higher rates of atheism?
Hmmm. A God that takes care of them? Could it be that the Holocaust has something to do with the higher rates of athiesm?
Look at it this way: the Jews have the capacity to honestly ask why people suffer much more than other people, in some cases, because they have been a persecuted people from the beginning. This leads to a more realistic view about the world in general. Jews know what real suffering and persecution is and cannot pretend it doesn't exist like many other faithful do when they dismiss the problem of suffering. If anything the Jews, through their suffering, have developed a more realistic vision of God. Also, when has God ever saved Christians from anything or preventing horrible deeds from being done in the name of Christianity? Just look at the crusades, God wasn't there to correct Christians who insisted that the Jews were "christ killers" and who went around randomly slaughtering them.
There's actually a really good movie on the subject of Jewish suffering as perceived by Holocaust victims. It's called "God on Trial" [video=youtube;dx7irFN2gdI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI[/video]
Hehe. Considering you were speaking of branches in Judaism, the mentioning of "Rabbinic Judaism or Rabbinism" is comical.
I realize you say this to mock those of faith as "stupid", but I take it another way. The education system is left winged by in large, leaning toward Marx politically, so it would stand to reason that those who have attained higher education have been by in large indoctrinated with the dogma of Marx. Therefore, they adopt the same attitude as Marx toward religion. To them it is nothing more than an opiate for the masses as they are churned out in mass from these institutions like drones that they are. Of course, you would have us believe that Marx and the rest of his atheist cohorts base their beliefs on rational thought and reality, however, the reality is that those who have historically followed after the Marxist ideology have been an epic failure. Yet academics continues anyway to follow after a failed ideology as they mock the free market as well as religion despite what history has taught us. Go figure.
Here is an interesting take on the suffering of the Jews. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revelation 12 And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars. And she was with child and she creid out, being in labour and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven, and behold a great red dragon having 7 heads and 10 horns, and on his heads were 7 diadems. And the tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour the child. And she gave birth to a son a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and her child was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for 1260 days. And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war. And they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of the brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death. For this reason, rejoice O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time. And when the dragon was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. And the 2 wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offsrping, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The interpretation Revelation verbally explains is that water = people and stars = angels. The way I interpret the rest is that the woman is the Jewish people who gave birth to Jesus. Then the woman, Israel, fled into the wilderness to escape the wrath of the devil, but only for a limited time. The wrath is also directed at followers of Christ. Christianity started via the blood of martyres being thrown to the lions, then came Constatine who used the religion for political purposes and a man-made theocracy that was later used to persecute Jews. Constatine was not even a Christian, although it is rumored that he converted on his death bed. In the end, both Christian and Jew alike survive even though they have been vigorously persecuted in the past. Of course, the theological question as to why God allows bad things to happen to them or anyone else is a whole other thread I suppose. So the question about the suffering in the Holocaust is just another attempt to come to terms with this fact. I suppose it is harder to answer when on a larger scale. Suffice it to say, no other people have encountered the persecution endured by the Jews, yet they live since ancient times despite this unequaled persecution. Why? It seems to me that something amazing has unfolded before our eyes, even though those eyes may have been blinded. We see persecution that defies logic yet they survive that also defies logic. It's what you call a miracle.
