Rights and Liberties

No, but ignoring science has consequences. Ignoring "rights" doesn't. It's apples to oranges.

 

lol. You go ahead and try to remove yourself from any form of "society" or "community" and we'll see how far you get

 

Rights and liberties stem from what people are willing to fight for. Nothing else matters. A citizenry which values nothing worth fighting to protect has no rights or liberties.

 

It matters not where our rights come from--it is obvious that we were born with them, but why other people feel their right comes from to take them away.

 

Wow. You have ceased being reasonable. Rethink this statement and get back to me when you realize what you have said.

 

I don't see the relevance of your statement.

 

I agree. But you still have the problem that geographically-defined nation-states don't care whether or not you agree to belong to their community if you're on their territory. Or not on their territory, in the case of Guantanamo Bay.

 

Ultimately like it or not all rights depend on the willingness of the people who desire that right to defend it at the point of a gun if necessary.

 

Employ all the reason you want, but if your society says you are fresh out of rights, you are fresh out of rights.

 

How are 'notions' any more REAL than society? It's not that I don't LIKE natural rights and liberties, they just don't exist any more among men than they do in a troop of baboons.

 

We have natural rights. You can do whatever you want until someone comes up and says you can't. Anyone who thinks rights come from society is an idiot. Society destroys your rights. Without other people around to tell you what you can and can't do, you can do whatever you want.

Here's and experiment:

Go to an island.
Do what you want.
Come back, post on the forum, and tell us who stopped you from doing what you wanted.

That's not to say that losing some rights and liberty isn't bad; certainly trading off my liberty to kill you in exchange for you losing your right to kill me is a good thing. However it goes way too far when society decides to punish the pariahs (smokers, drug users, drinkers, fat people all come right to mind). Again, society causes the loss of your rights and liberties; without society you are free to do whatever you want.

 

I don't know about someone controlling my mind, but society can put an end to my mind on a whim. It ALLOWS me to argue, which means it owns me.

 

There is other people?

Without society you don't have Internet, computerr....

 

That addresses what I said how?

 

Think about it. There is a direct relation.

 

So my rights come from the internet?

 

What is really ironic is that some people understand that rights come from society, but yet that want to take what little power they have and give all of that power to one of the most unemotional, uncaring, & unjust thing on this planet......the Government.

Might is what determines rights and who gets them....period.

 

Natural rights exist in the absence of the state....The state can only protect them and infringe upon them.
Liberty is a natural right.

 

If we were not born with rights then some invisible hand would stop us from breaking laws. Laws and the government cannot prevent you from doing something, only punish you after. Before there were governments men did what they wanted to do. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

We have rights, society and government limits them.

You have the right to burp, but society tells you that you shouldn't at the dinner table (although, it's a natural thing).

Marijuana and mushrooms are entirely natural, but the law tells you not to imbibe of them.

You have the right to speak and use words, but the government tells you now which words are acceptable, where you may say them, and what they may be used for.

They have guns and prisons. People comply.

 

You can deduce them scientifically, says Murray Rothbard.

 

Matters of morality and philosophy are not amenable to the scientific method.

 

I am not ALWAYS quick to find any person undeserving of rights. That is because I know that self-ownership is a fact, proven by the faculties we all have to self-create. From that fact, I can objectively determine right from wrong in the use of force or peaceful transactions with others. Nor do I "take away" the rights of others without a second, third, or fourth thought. If you do that, then say so. Don't make me a part of your argument.

 

Governments exist almost entirely to restrict freedom.

Society does not equal goverment.

Societies create governments that reflect the values that society holds dear at least initially but it is generally all down hill after that.

The primary purpose of government is to exercise power. To that end it will usurp as much power as the society that created it wil permit.

 

You think Nazis and Marxists don't employ reason?

Do people need a four year degree in morality to be moral? Obviously not. In fact they don't need four minutes worth of such instruction, so I'd suggest the simile is grossly inapt.

 

Of course they do you get most of it by the time you are four or five from your mom and dad. If you don't you generally spend the rest of your life in and out of prison assuming someone doesn't shoot you in self defense.