Repbulican: Pregnancy by rape "something God intended to happen".

Originally Posted by mdrobster Seriously dude, grow up, pregnancies caused by rape were "something God intended to happen".

Be a man, grow a spine, and address this as reality. Otherwise converse with someone else.

So, you hand down a death sentence to an innocent life because of the crime of another, just so you are not inconvenienced. Can't get any more selfish and self absorbed than that.

 

Originally Posted by Junior_Beauchamp Yes it is. And no matter how twisted your mind rationalizes away the truth, it will always be human.

Wrong again.

The fetus is a human under development just as a 10 year old child is.

 

Wrong, it is established scientific fact that zygote is a human being under development just as a 10 year old child is.

 

Originally Posted by Junior_Beauchamp
Why? What is the difference?

The only difference between that zygote and a 10 year old child is time, nutrients and water.

So, you have to answer the question, "What is it?"

If it is life, which science says it is, then no one has the right to deprive that growing child of life.

Of course the changes are dramatic, the baby is developing, just as there are dramatic changes between a 10 year old and a 90 year old.

 

If I am wrong .. you stating an opinion .. "The fetus is a human" ..without stating "why" certainly does not show that I am in error.

The implied circular fallacy " its a human because a human under development" is nothing but "assuming the premise"

What you are missing from your argument is "the why" .. Why is the single human cell at conception ... a human?

 

You said this previously and I gave you a list with numerous other "significant" differences.. to which you gave no response.

Why do you persist with this flawed argument.

What is it you ask ? It is a single human cell .. classified as a single human eukaryotic cell if you would like to get more technical .. as opposed to the classification "Homo Sapien", a club which every living human is a member of.

Is this single cell alive ? Of course it is .. just like every other living human cell. Being "alive" however does not make this cell "a child".

 

It's not "opinion".

It is established scientific FACT.

You, like all who support baby killing rationalize the facts away so you can continue your murderous ways.

 

You have presented no scientific facts. Things that are scientific facts have an explanation .. and you have given none.

Ranting over and over again "Its a fact.. Its a fact" does not make it so.

I have posted links from subject matter experts who disagree with you .. and they give the reason why.

All you have given is opinion and fallacy.

 

abortionists hiding behind "science" to conceal their wickedness.

SCIENCE AND ABORTION: THE FETUS IS HUMAN
Thomas McMullen

A fiction maintained by many abortionists and their backers is that the fetus is not human. This game with words has its parallels in
the horrific medical experiments Japanese and German doctors performed on captive humans during World War II. For example, one
veteran Japanese researcher referred to his subjects as "experimental materials" that were "not human." These subjects were frozen
and thawed to study frostbite, exposed to chemical weapons, and infected with deadly pathogens (for instance, Chinese children were
given chocolates filled with anthrax bacteria).
(1)
Never referring to their experimental subjects as human helped those
researchers rationalize the terrible acts they committed. The same thing is happening today with those promoting
abortion. (At the right is a human in the womb at 11 weeks.

The common-sense answer pro-lifers give abortionists is to wait
nine months and then see whether
or not the fetus is human. However
there is a scientific answer, and one
that has been given in the U.S. court
system. This is the "Frozen Embryo"
case.

In February 1989 Judge W.D. Young heard the "Frozen Embryo" case in Maryville, Blount County, Tennessee. Junior L. Davis had filed
suit against his ex-wife over custody of seven cryogenically frozen embryos that they had created at a fertility clinic while still married.
During the court proceedings a world-renowned expert in human genetics, Dr. Jerome Lejeune, testified.
(2)
(At the right is
a human in the womb at 13 weeks.)

Dr. Lejeune has an M.D. from the
University of Paris, and a Ph.D. in
genetics at the Sorbonne, Faculty of
Science. During his research he
discovered the first chromosomal
diseases in man, one being Down's
Syndrome (previously called
Mongolism). Invited to the U.S., he
gave the first course of human
genetics at the California Institute
of Technology. He received the
Kennedy Prize from the late
President and the highest award in
genetics, The William Allen
Memorial Award. Among the many
international science and medical
societies Dr. Lejeune is a member
of are The Pontifical Academy of
Science, Vatican, and the French
Academy of Moral and Political
Science. These organizations have
provided advice to world leaders on
matters such as the danger of the
use of atomic energy. Dr. Lejeune's
credentials go on, but the point is,
he was possibly the most qualified
scientist at the time to offer expert
testimony on the frozen embryos.

Dr. Lejeune began his scientific
testimony describing DNA and how
it functions in the human
reproductive cycle. He described
the DNA molecule as a thread about
one meter long and cut in 23
pieces. Each piece is so tightly
coiled on itself that it looks like a
little rod under the microscope and
is called a chromosome. Inside the
chromosomes is all the
transmitting information from
parents to children. As soon as the
23 chromosomes carried by the
sperm encounter the 23
chromosomes in the ovum, a new
human being is gathered and
defined. It is a cross between
matter, energy, and information.

The information from the father
varies minutely from sperm to
sperm, and likewise for each egg.
This is why the fertilization process
produces a combination that has
never occurred before and will
never occur again. Each person
therefore, is unique. Normally the
thousands of sperm, after
navigating from the genitalia of the
mother through the cervix and
uterine cavity encounter the egg
inside the fallopian tube. (With in-vitro fertilization, this encounter
occurs in a test tube.) Only one
sperm fertilizes the egg. You cannot
call a sperm and an egg a pre-embryo because you don't know
which sperm will make it into the
egg first. Thus you don't know what
the makeup of the embryo will be.
Once the sperm enters, then you
have a zygote, and when it divides
you have an embryo.

This reproductive process is a very
impressive phenomenon because,
in a sense, what is reproduced is
not the matter, but the information.
The matter is a support for the
information. This happens in radio,
television, or photography where
what is printed or reproduced is the
information, not the matter. A
chromosome with its long threads
of tightly coiled DNA is like a
minicassette with a symphony
recorded on it. If you buy a cartridge
with Kleine Nachtmusik on it and
play it, the musician would not be
reproduced or the notes of music.
What would be reproduced is the
movement air that transmits to you
the genius of Mozart. That is
exactly the way the human
symphony is played.

All the information for the new
human is in the fertilized egg and
then is played out in a unique
symphony of life. The first cell
knows more and is more
specialized than any subsequent
cell. It splits into three cells, which
then split further. (We don't know
why, but this three-cell stage is
critical.) We do not have a tissue
culture here, we have an individual
who is building itself according to
its own rule.

Dr.Alec Jeffreys in England has
invented a probe which, when
inserted in specially prepared DNA,
reads the DNA information like the
bar code we see in a supermarket.
Using this, we have found that no
two individuals are alike. The
probability of finding two persons
having identical DNA is one in a
billion. So it is not a theory that
each of us is unique, nor a
statistical inference, but now a
demonstration as simple as reading
a bar code. The symphony of each
life is unique. The individualization
of each human seems to occur at
the three-cell stage, but just the
same, the undifferentiated cell has
all the information prewritten in it.

The application of this discussion
to the case is that each frozen
embryo is a unique human being in
its own right. Separately or taken
together, these embryos are not
spare parts or experimental
material to use and then throw
away.

Dr. Lejeune wrapped up his opening
statement by testifying that as a
geneticist, he concludes that the
frozen embryo is an early human
being that is suspended in time and
"cannot be the property of anyone
because it is the only one in the
world to have the property of
building himself. And I would say
that science has a very simple
conception of man; as soon as he
has been conceived, a man is a
man."

http://personal.georgiasouthern.edu/~etmcmull/ABORTION.htm

 

You have been given tons of scientific facts, which you ignore and then toss out strawmen, and diversions.

I'm not going to play your game. I'll call you on your wickedness instead.

 

And factually wrong again, a zygote is far different from a simple blood cell or even a simple bone cell. A zygote is a complete human being at that stage of it's life. It will continue through the various stages of live until it's death hopefully as an aged senior citizen far different for earlier stages of it's life.

I posted for the teachers and authors of the textbooks which teach the scientific fact as I have clearly stated.

Then do tell us what genus and species it is then since it can be quite easily determined.

And BTW your source totally disqualified himself when he stated

"I don't know any biologist who would classify a single cell from a Homo sapiens as a Homo sapiens. Even a zygote, which may have the *potential* to become a Homo sapiens, but is not an organism by any stretch of the imagination, is not considered an individual Homo sapiens by any members of the scientific community that I know."

I quote several respected biologist and embryologist who have written some of the most respect textbooks on the subject.

 

Yes alive and being, an living organism and growing and growing and quickly become two cells then four cells and on and on through it's journey through life which began with conception.

ROFL because I don't make the distinction YOU do. What is the scientific distinction you make?

Nope made no such claim.

What do you think an Embryologist is?

Oh yes they are, they are quite studied in the biological sciences.

So rather than weed through your blather, where are the facts to refute those I have posted?

 

And what genus and species of organism other than human organisms share human DNA? You seem to believe that a zygote is formed and THEN it becomes the unique life that it will be the rest of it's existence. Scientifically wrong. fromm the moment of conception every life is unique with the rare biological abnormality of maternal twins where a fertilized egg separates and each survives.

 

Argue all you want. The woman decides.

If God intended it to happen, then what, God went and nudged the rapist, is that it? Bull(*)(*)(*)(*) abounds.

Anyone advocating that a raped woman who became pregnant through that rape should conceive should shut their mouths and go do something useful like go and rehabilitate a rapist. Maybe that's what God intends... for RAPE to end.

Whether the woman aborts or not is more important to many then the FACT that the woman was RAPED. Rape is a crime, you know. The rapist is a criminal. But no, FOCUS on the victim of rape... on whether she SHOULD be made to conceive after a HEINOUS CRIME was perpetrated on her.

After the utter bull(*)(*)(*)(*) on this subject I'd like to bash more than a few heads together.

 

I guess the mods are asleep at the wheel. This thread is way over 500 posts.. Who needs rules though

 

My poop has living organisms in it, will you protect its rights? One day my poop will fertilize some grass or be filtered to the ocean, those living organisms in my poop will then be consumed up the chain of life to finally be consumed by a pregnant woman, giving life and nourishment to that child. Will you protect that child by protecting my poop?

 

The free will that happened to a woman when she was raped?

The free will that happened to a woman when she was forcibly impregnated by her rapist?

The free will that happened to a woman when she was forced to keep the rapists fetus, growing inside her, each and every day reminding er of that violent act?

The free will that happened to a woman when her right to decide who's sperm meets her egg, was taken away from her by the religious Right?

What free will are you talking about? All I see here is people, men, christian men, wanting to impose their relious beliefs upon others. Knowing full well that they will never ever be in the position of carrying a rapists fetus.

What I see is sickening ignorance and arrogance.

What I see is the imposition of your will, your religion on to others.

 

Why do you have to misrepresent what he said? No one has said God "intended a rape to happen".

If you are going to argue the matter then don't do it with straw man arguments.

 

Yes, so does the yoghourt I am eating at the moment...but not human organisms.......your point being what?

 

The free will of the rapist who raped her, God didn't make him do it according to Judeo/Christian doctrine, he exercised his free will.

ROFL I'm an atheist. I don't believe in supernatural beings.

 

LOL .. of course the Fetus is Human. Just like every other human cell.

What it is not is "a human".

Note that in one sense human is used as a descriptive adjective and in the other as a noun.

 

Ad Hom and continuous repetition of your premise is not "scientific facts"

 

Whateverdehumanizing methods you need to convince yourself that you arent a despicable creature.

 

What is factually wrong is your claim that a zygote is a complete human being. You have not qualified this statement.

You start with this claim as you premise .. and then claim "it will continue .." This is a logical fallacy "unsupported premise".
I posted for the teachers and authors of the textbooks which teach the scientific fact as I have clearly stated.

It is classified as a single celled eukaryote. The single cell at conception is not classified as a Homo sapiens and you have not given anything that contradicts this. No single cell from a human .. or any other animal is classified in the same catagory as the whole organism.

This question makes me wonder if your really have a Biology Degree as you claim. You should have taken at least a little Taxonomy.

In order to gain entrance to the "club" Homo sapien .. the organism needs to have certain characteristics.

Some of these characteristics include having a spine, sexual reproduction (as opposed to asexual reproduction as is the case with the zygote which automatically disqualifies it as a member of the club Homo sapiens)

How is the above "disqualified" ?

I am not interested in what embryologists think. If you have a degree in Biology, as you claim, you have way more Biology than an embryologist. They have no expertise in the subject matter .. as a scientist you should understand this.

I did not see any "respected" biologist quoted in your link .. or even a PH.D Biologist for that matter. Nor was it stated anywere in your quotes that a zygote was classified as Homo sapiens.

As one scientist to another .. there is no need to "appeal to authority". I am not looking for " this is so and so's opinion" .. as a Scientist working in the field of applied microbiology I am quite capable of understanding "the why"

How is a single cell at conception "a human". You will notice that "the why" is always absent.

You will also notice that an explantaion of "the why" is given in the link I gave you from Dana Krempels. Debate what she says .. not the person.

If you find her explanation wanting .. then state "why"

 

I have not dehumanized the zygote ? The zygote is a human cell.

What is silly is raising a single human cell to the level of a living human.

Try this simple experiment .. find a 5 yr old child and show them 3 pictures (A man, A human cell, an Ape) Then ask the child to point out .. which one is not like the other.