America Looks At Israel vs Hamas Differently

Hamas shoots rockets at Israel. Israel retaliates and the rest of the world wonders why America does not condemn Israel

Here’s a hint, world. Look at the US $20 bill. Whose picture do you see? Andrew Jackson. The man who set the tone for successful US foreign policy.

Jackson completely believed that if you are going to make war, then make war like you mean it. Abraham Lincoln followed Jacksonian principles and won the US Civil War. He broke a lot of eggs making that omelette. Also in the Jacksonian camp: FDR. He ordered unrestricted submarine warfare and strategic carpet bombing and firebombing of enemy cities and set the stage for growing mushrooms in Japan.

Later Presidents were not Jacksonian enough and did not get the complete victories of the Jacksonians.

While some revisionist history condemns Jackson, a lot of Americans hold to his principles of war-fighting.
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/11/18/america-israel-gaza-the-world/

quote:
“…many of Israel’s military operations are more popular and less controversial in the United States than they are in Israel itself.”

“four schools of American thinking about world affairs; from the perspective of the most widespread of them, the Jacksonians, what Israel is doing in Gaza makes perfect sense.”

“Americans as a people have never much believed in fighting by “the rules.” The Minutemen who fought the British regulars at Lexington and Concord in 1776 thought that there was nothing stupider in the world than to stand in even ranks and brightly colored uniforms waiting to shoot and be shot like gentlemen. They hid behind stone walls and trees, wearing clothes that blended in with their surroundings, and took potshots at the British wherever they could. George Washington saved the Revolution by a surprise attack on British forces the night before Christmas; far from being ashamed of an attack no European general of the day would have countenanced, Americans turned a painting of the attack (“Washington Crossing the Delaware&#8221 into a patriotic icon. In America, war is not a sport.”

“Many Americans are instinctive Clausewitzians; Clausewitz argued that efforts to make war less cruel end up making it worse, and a lot of Americans agree.”

“An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity.”

“A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war.”

“Americans have tended to see wars as wars of peoples rather than wars of elites and in a war of peoples the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate targets tends to collapse. The German civilian (male or female) making weapons for Hitler’s Wehrmacht was as much a part of the enemy’s warmaking potential as the soldier at the front.”

“This justified the blockades against the Confederacy and against Germany and German occupied Europe during the world wars, and it also justified the mass terror bombing raids of World War Two in which the destruction of enemy morale was one of the stated aims.”

“Americans don’t like it when their enemies use this kind of logic, but it is a type of warfare they understand and they have fought and won enough of these wars in the past to be ready if necessary to do it again.”

“From this perspective, in which war is an elemental struggle between peoples rather than a kind of knightly duel between courtly elites, the concept of proportionality seems much less compelling.”

“…if some kind of terrorist organization were to set up missile factories across the frontier in Canada and Mexico and start attacking targets in the United States, the American people would demand that their President use all necessary force without stint or limit until the resistance had been completely, utterly and pitilessly crushed.”

“The guilt would be on the shoulders of those who started the whole thing by launching the missiles.”

“…when television cameras show the bodies of children killed in an Israeli air raid, Jacksonian Americans are sorry about the loss of life, but it inspires them to hate and loathe Hamas more, rather than to be mad at Israel. They blame the irresponsible dolts who started the war for all the consequences of the war and they admire Israel’s strength and its resolve for dealing with the appalling blood lust of the unhinged loons who start a war they can’t win, and then cower behind the corpses of the children their foolishness has killed.”

“…the widespread American belief that Palestinian hate rather than Israeli intransigence is the fundamental reason for the Middle East impasse…”

“…when Israel brings the big guns and fast planes against Gaza’s popguns and low tech missiles, a great many Americans see nothing but common sense at work.”

“…Americans aren’t mad about ‘disproportionate’ Israeli violence in Gaza because they don’t really accept the concept of proportionality in war.”

Taxcutter notes:
Proportional response in Vietnam led to an unsatisfactory outcome.

Quote:
“If anything, rather than weakening American sympathy for Israel, Israel’s response in Gaza (and the global criticism that surrounds it) is likely to strengthen the bonds of respect and esteem that many Americans feel for Israelis. Far from seeing Israel’s use of overwhelming force against limited provocation as harsh or immoral, many Americans see it as courageous and wise.”

Taxcutter says:
Europeans have a long, long history of prolonged, low intensity conflict dating back to the fall of Rome, Hence they are drawn to a “war” that is only slightly more intense than banditry. On the other hand, even US street gangs understand the folly of war Hamas-style.

 

ever wonder if the 'east' is getting involved this time?


then if it goes nuclear, 'we' are surrounded by water, which means subs

I love the fight for freedom and equality but it is that segregaion and dividing in the so called 'holy land' that is going to cause ww3 cuz i believe that when one nuke pops over a population, the east is going to shut down the west like a video game

no one will see it coming

except to watch what could start it


Oppression!

 

"...the east is going to shut down the west like a video game"

Taxcutter says:
Just do it - if you can - and stop boring us to death with empty talk.

 

The premise of the post, from the outset, is flawed. So logically therefore, what follows is also flawed.

 

Hamas TV to Israelis:

We "love death more than you love life"

"The price will be high, Sons of Zion...

All of Palestine is ours.

There is nothing here for you but death"

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=8022

VIDEO

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=987&fld_id=987&doc_id=8025

 

Did Hamas not shoot rockets into Israel?

Did Hamas not publicly declare they were in a state of open war with Israel?

What is it the Iron Domes are shooting down?

 

Have you ever heard of the term "cause and effect"?

 

Have you ever heard of the term "cause and effect"?

 

Have you ever heard of the term chicken and egg?

You talk like one of my kids who is convinced that the other started it.

Any grown-up knows that there is no solution when one is seeking the blame elsewhere.

 

Did Israel steal Palestinian land? Yes.
Did Israelis loot Palestinian homes? Yes
Did Israel demolish 25,000 Palestinian homes? Yes.
Has Israel murdered thousands of Palestinians? Yes.
Is Israel occupying Palestinian lands? Yes.
Does Israel continue to this day to steal Palestinians land? Yes.
Has Israel got a blockade on the people of Gaza because it did not like who they voted for in democratic elections? Yes.
Has Israel kicked every peace deal into the long grass? Yes.
Does Israel imprison Palestinian children without trial and without a chance to see a lawyer? Yes.

 

Your comment about Americans preferring total war would make sense, except for you know, vietnam, Korea(look up the sacking of McArthur) First Persian Gulf. We don't do total war anymore, because it tends to end in charges of war crimes, check out Nuremburg.

The real reason we're on Israel's side is because American's tend to like jews more than muslims, and we've got this wierd idea in our heads that Israel somehow isn't just another militaristic Middle Eastern regime.

 

The analogy of the thief and the victim is a good one. It's morally wrong to continually avoid attributing blame at the door of the thief.

 

Do you have the remotest idea whatsoever WHY they shot rockets into Israel? Are you in some parallel universe where you truly believe they shot those rockets COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED and that bringing their armored bulldozers into Gaza and killing a 12-year-old boy and killing a Hamas leader who was working on a long-term truce with a drone should have simply been overlooked by Hamas?

The mantra that bothers me is that "poor tiny Israel" has the right to "protect herself" but Gaza doesn't. What kind of logic supports such an insane statement?

 

I agree. But while I certainly understand that Hamas had good reasons to fire these rockets, firing rockets isn't exactly what I'd call a wise move.

 

“Your comment about Americans preferring total war would make sense, except for you know, vietnam, Korea(look up the sacking of McArthur) First Persian Gulf.”

Taxcutter says:
As I pointed out, indeed the US has not done war in the proper Jacksonian model since 1945, and the results have been definitely suboptimal. A true Jacksonian would have drubbed Iraq, strung up Saddam, pumped enough oil to pay for the whole enterprise and then left, leaving the Iraqis to wallow in their own follies.


“We don't do total war anymore, because it tends to end in charges of war crimes, check out Nuremburg.”

Taxcutter says:
Only losers get tried for war crimes. Did you see any Americans, British, or Russians on the dock at Nuremberg, did you? That’s one of the reasons you always want to win your wars.

 

"...Hamas had good reasons to fire these rockets, firing rockets isn't exactly what I'd call a wise move."

Taxcutter says:
The provocation is irrelevant. If you choose to go to war as Hamas has done, you take the good with the bad.

You could make a case that FDR provoked the Japanese into Pearl Harbor, and the result was total national humiliation. But at least the Japanese didn't whine like Hamas. They knew they were up against a superior power so they took their blockade, fire-bombings and nuking as a part of the game.

The US is wise to stay out of it. Too bad everyone else isn't that smart.

 

Certainly not a wise move but the only move they have and to do nothing would be to give in to their jailers/oppressors and accept their move into permanent slavery. As horrible as the results are, fighting back in the only way they can at least keeps hope alive in the people of Gaza that they haven't yet given up or been defeated.

 

Being dead doesn't keep your hopes alive.

 

i figure if people stop trying to kill Israelis and destroy Israel then Israel will stop trying to kill the people trying to kill them and that killing civilians as collateral damage will also stop

 

Currently, the West has significantly more military might than the East. Your prediction would require America to dramatically reduce its military power, which doesn't seem very likely anytime soon.

 

Na, fighting back with rockets just gives Israel excuses to bomb the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of Gaza and makes Regev's unbearable spin easier.
Unarmed peaceful resistance is the way to go. Israel knows that, too. Which is why they provoke more rockets whenever a solution to the rocket problem is in sight. This time they conveniently killed Jabari before he could agree to a sensible ceasefire-agreement that would have possibly robbed Israel of further excuses to terrorize Gaza: http://scholarsandrogues.com/2012/1...-brought-hamas-negotiations-to-premature-end/

 

Sorry, but you are dreaming.

Were it not for Hamas, those left would be like lambs to the Purim slaughter.

You think you can stop psychopaths by talking sweet, and bringing flowers?

Really..???

 

Considering how powerful Israel's military is, it's probably not a good idea to attack them unless you don't mind seeing more civilians getting killed.

 

Feck them.

If they had done to me what they had done to the people there, I would not be going to them with flowers and kisses either.

I assure you, I would put ten of them in the ground, wherever I could, for every one they took from me.

Would not even think twice.

 

I doubt Jack cares much for Palestinian civilians. He just wants to bash Jews. The more Palestinians suffer the more he can do that. He probably rejoices almost as much at every dead Palestinian child as Netanjahu secretly rejoices at every Palestinian rocket right now.