So what is the diffrence between anarchism and some current "conservatism"?

Well, that I'd blame on contra-productive leftist policies, not government per se. Compare the west during the cowboy era, with the west with more government and law while the leftist blight hadn't yet started.

Isn't the point of anarchism that there'd be no government? Are you even arguing for anarchism?

 

The problem is defining what government is excessive. Generally that turns out to be "anything I personally don't agree with" which obviously doesn't help since everyone has different wants.

 

pretty much 99% of all government we have today is excessive.

they are in the "rights" selling business and they sell you rights in the form of a license that you do not need or that they do not bear any liability.

You must have a license to drive, or practice medicine, however if one of these licensed drivers or doctors mess you up you cannot sue the licensing agent. (the government)

No liability defeats any purpose of a license.

How do we spell RICO?

 

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The US was designed to operate little different than any other feudal society. So its by design its anything but for the people.

Pure anarchism purely favors each individual

 

except that it most likely doesn't work out in a way that is ultimately good for personal liberty.

 

Overlords are overlords only because the "over-" part is the "lord-" part pushing people around (another way of saying 'enforcing what the overlords use as law)

Our overlords in the US use anything they want as law and they are sovereign which for a state means they have little to NO accountability.

And you can't have law without government. Are you kidding?

You most certainly can have law without government.
Government has nothing to do with law technically if argued to its end conclusion.

There are 50 of us. We make a law that we can't kill each other. (First of all, we are all the govt in that we made a law, but ignore that for now if you want)....

Do you really need a law that says hey you cannot "wrong" another? (so to speak) Does that not go without saying?

What if someone doesn't obey that "law"? Do they get punished? If not, what's the point of the law? If so, whoever punishes them is called the govt. (they are "governing", get it? "governing?")

Its not a question of "obedience".
Its a question of contractual compliance.
The basis of all law is always contracts and covenants of some sort between people.
It has absolutely nothing to do with government!
It goes back even before cave man days and even every ancient bible on the planet talks about that as well.
However when you have a government as an overlord rather than the ability to act as a free agent you are a victim of conquest.

Law is meaningless without government.

Thats not correct.
Government only effects policy.
If I lend you my pen you are expected to give it back that just created the law with that regard between us.
If you keep the pen you are in breach of the agreement.
The agreement is the law, hence my jurisdiction to demand that you COMPLY and give my pen back.
If you fail to comply, I can take you before a court, which consists of a group of people (nothing to do with government) to determine if a contract was made with you and its terms sufficient.
If these people concur, then you have in addition a judicially determined obligation to return my pen.
If you are in breach of that obligation then and only then would you go to the enforcement arm of the society which need only consist of a sherriff etc to confiscate my pen and return it to me.
That and anytime you have a "COURT" that is part of government you have a military form of govenment or have been taken over by conquest and the word "People" as the ruling class shifts to the overlords.

In an anarchial system government only acts as the peoples militia from an enforcement standpoint and administratively in the management of roads and other community projects that you can by contract opt in and opt out of at your own descretion.

Acting beyond that is overlordship and rule by police state.

The government would have no authority in "law making", the courts would be totally civilian and completely detached from "government", there would be only jury's no black robed priests with BAR association club membership, the government would act only in an advisory capacity, not law maker, the courts would determine each case on its own merits, not the one shoe fits all square peg in round hole police state as we have now.

Thats how anarchy would look, not too much different than we have now, just a complete power shift to those who bear the full brunt of the liability in either case.

Pretty tough to self govern when you have some group doing it for you.

 

Since an absolutist form of anarchy is by definition omnipotent personal liberty I cant connect the dots in what you are sayjng?

Its so easy however for criminal elements to make any system fail and then jump in with the overlord solution.

Its a process that is used on us every day of our lives called the hegelian dialectic (thesis-antithesis-synthesis, as it applies to control)

It is so subtle and innocuous in its appearance that most people are unaware its even going on, or that they are the targets and intended victims. (wolves in sheeps clothing)

Just like the gangsters have always operated. All one need do is burn your house down then offer you "protection" insurance as a solution, once under contract raise the rates. It works the same way in any "government" operation, just the labels change to appease the victims. Its all mob rule with a face lift and pink dress.

 

No - take a good look at what you are licking sometime!

 

OK, I'm not connecting the dots either. Are you saying that when a dozen bandits show up, you tell them "I have omnipotent personal liberty, by definition!" and they go away?

BTW, what your hunter gatherer fellows invented first was farming. They found they got to eat more often, and more of their kids got to grow up, so the idea took off. Taxes and government come along later, as tribes get bigger and bigger.

 

Well, they did hang horse thieves. Now, car thieves are released and told to not do naughty things any more.

 

I don't care about the definition of anarchy, it's unworkable anyways. It's just a lala psuedo-ideology. It's like I were to say that in my own ideological utopia there is no such thing as bad people, because my utopia is per definition rid of bad people. Does that mean it works, or that it has any connection to the real world? No, of course not. And it's just the same with anarchism: completely ignoring reality and human nature.

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Again, I blame the cancer that is the new left for that. But to be frank, I'd rather prefer the current situation to that of the west back then.

 

I understand Anarchism. Hence why I can say there would be a government, just based on the social contract. If you don't like it, you can leave.

 

Wow I would take the old west any day of the week compared to what we have now. Hell I would be happy to get back to the 50's when people still had some level of decency and honor.

That is the problem with all the ism and archy debates.

Everyone attacks everything from the purist standpoint and there is no such thing and that is a fools trail I do not walk.

Anarchy is an absolute minimist government. There is government in the family house rules as a child forward. I thought I posted what would be required or at least touched oon it, but you need slices of literally everything to truly have a well oiled society that achieves the most personal liberty, most rights for the individual yet supports the needs of the social unit. The problem is that these are always structured such that rather than preventing corruption the systems foster it.

In an anarchist world with the exception of enforcing court decisions made by the people in "their" court by them, as "jury", Never a judge, NOT a government military court styled for civilian use as we have in the US, where the only other thing the government would act upon is pure necessity such as public roads water, but only in the maintenance of them, not enforcement, that goes to the peoples court always.

These debates always look to some utopia within a specific ism and it wont happen, need very strict immovable narrowly defined areas that each ism instituted can operate and never smudge over or blend. "DONE CORRECTLY"; It would create a society that would prevent corruption rather than foster it and people would actually want to be involved and FEEL like they are part rather than abandoned by government/society. In the end you would have as many rights as an individual as is humanly conceivable while protecting culture that governments up till now have destroyed in the name of the government religion.

 

I'd go back to 1948, in the US. Twenty years of steady economic growth to look forward to. The best of times.

But as for the honor and decency part, my family history says different. My grandfather was a small scale electrical contractor, both before and after WWII. Never had a written contract, before the war. After, that didn't work any more.

My guess is that was a matter of too many new guys in town. I think that the 'honor and decency' stuff depends on circumstances, not chronological era.

I don't think you'd find the old west wasn't quite what romantic fiction makes it....

 

depends I spose.

you go out shoot a buffalo and you had enough beef jerky to last you all year.
plant your garden spend the summer watching it grow, harvest in fall.
chop up 10 chords of wood and you got heat all winter
ate the best healthiest food with no preservatives and trash they put in it.
its different, in many ways far better than what we have today, others not so much LOL

 

You are right. Corporatism is to capitalism what Authoritarian Communism is to Socialism. It's what you get when greed is allowed to corrupt the system and laws and regulations are written by whores who do favors for their financial backers instead of doing what is best for the people and country as a whole.

There are plenty of corporatists on both sides. However, conservatives tends to be more open about it. Part of the conservative idealogy is that businesses should be unregulated and free to do what they want, so corporatism is a natural part of the ideals.

Liberal corporatists tend to want to hide their work, since liberalism supports the workers over business, and tends to want business regulated. It's much easier to spot a conservative corporatist than a liberal corporatist. Obama, however, has proven himself to be a corporatism by supporting Romney's insurance mandate.

 

No electricity, no phones, no cars, no indoor plumbing, just hard work from first light to nightfall, then go to bed early since there is no electric lights, TV, or computers, get up before dawn and start it all over again.

No thanks.

 

off grid electricity is easy enough.

just hard work? Doing what??? watching the garden grow all summer? you work a couple months and have the rest of the year off LOL its manual labor though if that is what you mean? Stress will kill you far faster.

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yeh all a matter of scale!

 

I think you must have slept through the "what the 19th. century was like" lesson in history class. Off grid electricity? Sure, Little House on the Prairie had its diesel generator, didn't it? Just watch your garden grow? Sure, while hoeing weeds (no round up, remember)? Plowing with a mule? Nothing to it, the mule does all the work, right? Washing clothes with a washboard and tub, oh, well, that's just women's work.

No, you take your 19th. century. I'll keep my modern medicine and labor saving devices. Just keep your horse and buggy out of the way of my car.

 

I think you're suffering from a very serious case of unrealistic romantic primitivism disorder.

 

Amen. On a non-electrified farmstead, everything has to be done by human or animal power. That's a heck of a lot of human power, as animals can't:

1. Feed themselves (even if they are pastured, you have to move them to the pasture.)
2. And keep them there. Animals can't build or repair fences.
3. Cows/goats don't milk themselves.
4. Cows/goats don't keep all the milking apparatus and containers clean and sanitary. You do that.
5. Want cheese? You have to make it.
6. Want butter? You have to make it.
7. Be sure to keep all the equipment for cheese/butter making sanitary and in good repair.
8. Get rid of all the weeds where your garden is going to be. This means turn the dirt over enough to bury the weeds deep (plow), or turn the dirt over some and macerate it to destroy weed roots (till). Your horse/mule can help here, but you'll have your work, walking every foot of the field, back and forth, while keeping the implement in the dirt.
9. Go over the dirt until you've made the chunky cloddy stuff left by plowing/tilling into nice soft dirt to plant in.
9. Plant. Depending, this can range from broadcast sowing of seeds to to digging and covering seeds to transplanting individual seedling from the forcing shed.
10. Keep after the weeds. hoe hoe hoe. again and again and again.
11. Get after the bugs. No chemicals--soap spray ok. Harvest the tomato worms by hand.
12. Lambs being born! c
13. Calves being born! Attend delivery. Clean-up afterwards.
14. Colts being born! Attend delivery. Clean-up afterwards.
15. Piglets being born! Attemd delivery. Clean-up afterwards.
16. Feed the chickens.
17. Clean the chicken coop.
18. Repair chicken coop.
19. Dinner time! Kill something, dispose of guts, pluck feathers or skin as necessary, cut-up.
20. Chop wood for stove. Get some more back for winter while you're at it.
21. Make fire in stove.
22. Cook. Make everything from scratch.
23. Pump water, haul in, heat on stove, wash dishes.
24. Put all the animals were they go at night. Curry the horses. Feed.
25. Makes sure all the horses harness and tack are clean and in good repair.
26. Did you clean the plow and do any necessary maintenance? See to that.
27. Washing needs done. Pump water, heat water, fill wash and rinse tubs, scrub on washboard.
28. Haul wet clothes out to clothesline. Hoist 'em up and pin to line.
29. Ironing. Heat flatirons on stove (got plenty of wood?). Use the heavy ones so they stay hot a while.
30. Shovel out the barn.
31. Time to go get supplies. Check the buckboard, fix anything on it you didn't fix already. Hitch team to buckboard. See you tonight!
32. Stow buckboard full of supplies where they go. Haul feedbags up ladder, dump feed in bins.
33. Harvest, thresh, husk, shell, stow, preserve.
34. Make what you need in general, oil it, grease it, paint it, tighten it, as necessary. Fight an endless and losing battle with rust and rot. Fix everything that breaks.
35. This includes all those buildings, starting with fellling trees with saw and ax, and hauling to sawmill to get boards.
36. Everything else not mentioned.
37. Mow the grass! Don't want the neighbors to think you're lazy!