Is Europe "better" than America?Should America change into Europe?

Per another thread, a member posted something like this:

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=341169&page=6

And this individual claim to be "pro-America". Normally, if that were the case, we can only conclude that "Europe is better than America" being a fact is the only redeeming chance for this individual to be what he thinks he is, because surely you don't want something worse for your country right?

Ok, enough cross-posting, actually, this thread is dedicated in exploring into this myth that is quite popular amongst liberals, namely, Europe is "better" than America.

From personal experience, I can say that is very unlikely to be true. Because far more Europeans (from the developed part of course) want to migrate to the US of A other than the reverse.

Also speaking from personal experience, most reasonable Europeans I know don't think their policies can simply be applied unadjusted to the US, people from Nordic countries frequently and frankly mention how rich their natural resources are in a per capita sense, and how their culture is entirely different from a rather materialistic one such as US.

Other than that, we can also ponder a little on how many new companies are being started every year in the US, how many cutting edge technologies are being incubated inside the US, how many top-notch institutions for higher studies are here in the US...

But then again, maybe a different conclusion can be drawn once you look at this problem from a different angle?

 

better is subjective. and there are countless fields to compare..

when it comes to history, europe is better. And we're also richer and healthier on average. But then, we don't have the military americans have. So I guess it's about priorities.

 

Short answer: No.

Long Answer? Much like the short answer - No.

 

No.

No.

 

It'd be pretty cool to be able to take a day trip and end at the steps of the Temple of Apollo though....

 

Indeed, or live next to a big runestone, or see the colloseum from one's window. But more importantly, it's about that one can feel that one's people have, literally, a history of two thousand and more years in these lands.

 

Given how corruption is becoming so pervasive here in the U.S. and the govt. losing nearly all credibility, I don't think the U.S. is going to be looking all that good to Euros in the near future. Look at banana republics for what the U.S. is becoming. Even the GOP's last Presidential candidate doesn't keep his money here, nor does he have a clue about how most people in the U.S. actually live. He doesn't know his party indexed the personal deduction to inflation back in the 1990's and it's wage stagnation and inflation that drops more people off the numbers paying taxes these days. The 'elites' in this country might as well be from Monte Carlo or Thailand.

 

The temple of Apollo and most Greek ruins are lame. What a disappointment they are. Roman ruins are cool.

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Obama reid and pelosi won't be in office forever.

 

At the risk of offending you, Sweden is not, neither is Germany. The mean income of Sweden is comparable only to Alabama.

 

NO!! NO!! A thousand times, NO! Our ancestors fled the oppressive, statist, war torn lands of europe for freedom, independence, self reliance, & a system where the govt was to serve the people, not the euro system of lords & serfs, which easily transitioned to industrial revolution slavery, then socialism slavery. This is an experiment in individual sovereignty, & it appears to be coming to an end. We'll be back to the euro style of statist mandates very soon.

Seriously? The 'new' world has just as much history, just not the architecture to go with it. I can visit roman ruins, or aztec ruins, or old scottish castles, or montezuma's castle. Most of the great architecture of europe is a monument to slavery.. most of it was built on the backs of poor working people for the benefit, glory, & vanity of wealthy exploiters. No! Europe is a warning to humanity. You can promote the statist's vanity by oppressing & exploiting the worker, & build monuments to their great cruelty, but it is not the message for a free people to emulate. You don't see those monuments to slavery in the new world of america as much. Yes, much of the modern cities, & grand govt buildings are in the same vein. We, it seems, are not happy with freedom, but long for statist oppression & cast envious eyes constantly to europe.

Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror. ~Ann Coulter

 

Sweden's nominal gdp per capita is higher than the US. Comparing a part of the US to the whole of Sweden is about as fair as comparing the richest nieghborhood in Stockholm to the whole of US.

No, it doesn't. It literally doesn't, as history, as opposed to pre-history, is though of to start with the advent of writing. That means that the US has thousands of years less history than europe. No matter how we choose to quantify it, europe does have more history than perhaps the entirity of the americas. Whatever you've got, we've got ten times over.

How can you possibly look down on europe, comming from the country which kept slavery longer and which went nazi on indians? We all have faults, so don't pretend that the US wasn't a racist imperialist genocide-commiting slave power.

 

I can agree with this. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Surely there are things Europe does better than America, health care being one of them. But just as surely there are things America does better. Instead of it being us versus them, all or nothing, stop or go, lets have conversations and identify areas where each of those two continents have better results with their respective policies.

Ideas are borderless.

 

It's not only about ideas though. The USA can never be as successful as Sweden if they were to adopt the swedish tripartite corporatist model, simply because such a model requires a certain position. needless to say, they're not in very similar positions. Each people are unique, as are their circumstances, and thus the optimal form of governance for them is also unique.

 

All policies and actions can be reduced down to ideas. Unless people only take kneejerk reactionary actions, there is thought and consideration put into policies, and ideas do not have borders.

But you are right, you wouldn't just be able to import ideas from other areas and expect them to work the same. But the back and forth of ideas and information can help produce new perspectives and new ways of approaching problems that maybe you hadn't thought of before, or that maybe your national pride, beliefs, etc have caused you to ignore or overlook. There is not one single country in the world that does everything right if you ask me and if you stop thinking there is room for improvement, you will stagnate, every time.

 

well, i'm not making distinctions of 'history' or 'prehistory'.. i'm just calling everything in the past, 'history'. THAT seemed to be your point, not culture, art, or literature. And i'm not sure this is a competition for ancient artifacts.. unless you want to include egypt, say.. they would 'one up' you on your claims. What good has 'history' done the egyptians, lately?

But i'll let you have your superior history, even though it is my history as well. My family has been in the americas for ~400 yrs. THAT is my personal history. Before that, it was a hodgepodge of scots, english, irish, german & other mostly european ancestry. But i still don't get the 'better' part of your claim. I'll go with 'different', but 'better' seems a bit bigoted & arrogant. The aztecs were ancient, as well as the mayans, & their monuments to human oppression are as impressive as the european or egyptian ones. But i'll leave the value judgements about 'better' or 'more' to you.

I'm not looking down on europe, or making value judgements about 'better' or 'more' history. I'm pointing out that these monuments you admire are mostly monuments to man's vanity & are built upon the exploitation of the working man. I like architecture, too, but i don't have any trouble seeing history with all its warts. Recognizing & verbalizing historical facts is not a demeaning action. It is a statement of historical fact. ..and where do you come off claiming i said anything like that about the us? It has plenty of warts as well.. in our longing to be like our european cousins, we happily joined in the imperialist, manifest destiny view of humanity. We just didn't have the power for most of our history.

I'm getting a bit miffed at your slanderous accusations, SG. I 'pretended' no such thing. If you want to argue my points, or rebut them with evidence, have at it. You seem to be degenerating into leftist slander practices.. demeaning, discrediting, distorting, deflecting.. all the D's of leftist debating tactics. I made my points. I supported them with reason & appeals to historical evidence. If you have a problem with my conclusions, pick them apart, but making slanderous misquotes of my posts is a sleazy tactic.

 

the other side of the coin for me is that Europe by and large does not allow itself to be enslaved to their history. In the US, the lack of a long history makes everything so controversial in too many places when we set about to do things. In the US we would rather build a building that looks old or preserve a building that is not particularly old or historically relevant than embrace modern architecture for instance or tear down that which is less than useable just because *gasp* the standard flavorless rectangular brick building was built before WWII and that makes it "historical". My city has a historical overlay over an area where most of the buildings were built around WWII and many of them as late as the 1980's. It makes no flipping sense to me.

 

If we include prehistory, I belive europe still got the lead. Anyways, this is all about "better", which is very subjective. I am saying that however we choose to quantify history in order to compare them, europe will win. More artifacts, longer history, and more advanced civilizations. It's just one of the things I brought up showing how europe is better than the US, in reply to the OP.

"europe is a warning" "not something free people should emulate". nope, no value judgement at all on your part..

 

Again, you parse my post to make a false narrative. The 'warning', if you read the context, was about statist manipulators of the working man. THAT is what the monuments to man's vanity are about, & i turned it around from a glorification to a warning. There is reason for my warning, & it is only a 'value judgement' for those who think statist oppression is bad for humanity. I chided you for using 'better' & 'more' which are subjective value judgements, based on arrogance & bigotry, not anything tangible. But i will concede that my 'warning' is also a value judgement. But it is based on the love of individual sovereignty, which i can defend, logically, & philosophically. Can you defend the 'better' & 'more' parts of your claim? What is the basis? Architecture? Music? Science? Oppression of the working man? What makes europe 'better' than china, india, persia, egypt, north or south america? What is the basis for this value judgement?

 

BTW, the america bashers are not alone in their disdain of america.. many european leaders agreed that it is a weak & useless system.

I don't see much future for the Americans ... it's a decayed country. And they have their racial problem, and the problem of social inequalities ... my feelings against Americanism are feelings of hatred and deep repugnance ... everything about the behaviour of American society reveals that it's half Judaised, and the other half negrified. How can one expect a State like that to hold together? ~Adolf Hitler

 

I used 'better' because the OP asked the question, but it's of course my subjective understanding of better, which I argued for by stating that europe has more history however we choose to quantify it. If you then come along and say it's momuments to opression, and europe is a warning, and not something for free people, that seemed to me to be an attempt on your part to discredit europe's history, in favour of america's history, given that the thread is eu vs Us.

 

one reason no alliance has formed against America yet is because, while resentment of America is rife, particularly among European elites, the attraction of America - its culture, universities, movies, food, clothing and technologies - is just as strong, and today no power in the world can balance it. For every European elitist who resents America for what it is, there are 10 Euro-kids who want what America is. "America is both menace and seducer, both monster and model..~Josef Joffe

BTW, anyone have a guess who said this?

"But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what's bad."

 

Then you were transferring arguments i was not making. I replied to the OP, but my points were not pro or con his statements, but in reply to yours. You claimed a 'better' history, wealth, & health. My reply was.. nevermind.

I get tired of all the clarifying, explaining, correcting distortions, & general nitpicking that goes on in these forums. Maybe i'm just a cranky old curmudgeon, but it gets old. I said what i said, & if you don't understand it, especially after several clarifications, i'm tired of the deflections. Fine. Europe is better than the US... in history, health, wealth, & every possible way. This is a stupid argument for me, & is not one i was engaging in. Anti american sentiment is rampant, & is expected for any world hegemony. I have more criticisms than most foreigners for the direction of my country, but for different reasons. The difference is, i have a vested interest in our direction, & my freedom, & the freedom of my children & grandchildren are at stake. So i'm not nearly as concerned about foreign critics, as i am about my own countrymen who seem intent upon our destruction. I have bigger fish to fry than worrying about how indoctrinated, misinformed subjects from other regions in the world want to 'fundamentally transform america'. We have enemies within that are doing that as we speak.

 

When Indiana starts contributing to this country technogically or financially on the same level as even its neighbor Illinois, then we can talk.

 

Europe is soon to become Eurabia.

How can they have allowed it to happen?

How is that better than America?

Could it be they just fell first?

And we'll fall to Islam later?

[video=youtube;NQOCcx5V9RI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQOCcx5V9RI[/video]

 

Rather confusing replying to me when you meant to adress the OP.

The first post I made here, I explained that europe is better at some, the US at others. So no, I'v never said that europe is best at everything, which you implied here. Yes, anti-americanism is a problem, but in my view, americo-centrism is a worse plague. Also, stating that europe is better in some areas doesn't mean that I'm a foreigner who wishes to change the US.

Again, better in some, worse in others. This is defeinitively a flaw of ours.