Ukraine 2014 .....Jewish phone conversations...

so, you're just speaking to yourself here.

 

I talk to those who understand. Those who don't understand keep on answering what they don't understand anyway.

 

I'm seriously doubt that anyone can understand what you just wrote

 

In regards to 1; my relatives were killed by people, ordinary people who did so in the name of the laws of their nations. That you clearly missed. German laws and laws passed in other countries enabled the holocaust. You seem to completely ignore Nuremberg's trials and the conclusions it made. Even Russia
prescribes to them and stated, what Nazi Germany showed was that people in the name of the law and doing things following the law, kill.

In regards to 2, Hitler had no Jewish blood. The Briitsh MI-5 started a false rumour to humiliate Hitler claiming his name was Shekelgruber and he was Jewish. That was admitted by the British as false after the war.The fact you still repeat such silliness speaks for itself. You want to start a thread Hitler was jewish or Jews fought in the Nazi army go ahead. Those kinds of ridiculous allegations were in fact started by ex Nazis in Syria working for the Syrian government's Ministry of Propoganda and by the KGB which then picked up on those stories when it befriended Syria as an ally.

In regards to 3, you want to come on this forum and defend Stalin's forced starvation of millions of innocent Ukrainians and call them all revolutionaries, knock yourself out. It speaks for itself and what your agenda is and why you engage in the comments you do about Ukrainians.

In regards to 4, the fact I do not agree with your Stalinist views and anti Ukrainian views does not give yout he right to attack me personally or engage in patronizing comments about me or Jews. Knock it off and stick to the debate.

In regards to 5, don't presume to lecture me about what happened to my people. Your attempt to suggest the Russians are being treated today as Jews were in the holocaust is absurd.

In regards to you not drinking, let me make this clear. That was a rhetorical comment. I did not mean literally you drink vodka. I could have made that comment clearer.

I was making an analogy to false courage or false pride.

I personally believe anyone who puffs themselves up to be able to start calling an entire people a negative generalization justified to be killed in the name of their "motherland" to be a facist.

I see Zero difference between the politics of Hitler and Stalin. Zero.

Let me make that as clear as I can-what I see in both pictures are man with bad hair cuts and questionable mustaches.

What I see were two men fond of ordering people killed and who did not beleive in democracy. Both men ordered the mass killings of innocent people.

The Soviet Union was no innocent nation. It massacered not just Ukrainians but Poles. Stalin to me was no different than Hitler. I agree totally with Winston Churchill's opinion on him.

Clearly you idolize him. I do not.

 

Maybe. But I got used to read what is written and not some imaginary nonsense. You wrote previously:

And now you say

If you don't see the difference please ask me and I will explain it trying to present it in the manner which will not harm your self-exteem. Although it will be quite difficult.

I didn't argue with the results of Nuremberg trial. But besides, nazis you had "stalinists, ukrainians, russians" who were not convicted in Nuremberg at all. If you don't see the diference between nazist and russian or stalinist and ukrainian - ask me to explain it or look in the dictionary.

I checked it. It looks to be true. Wow! Thank you very much. I really had a wrong belief. Nevertheless as I used a false example of an idea I wouldn't refuse of an idea that nationality doesn't make a virtue or a vice of any man.

If I was a westerner I would buy any propaganda without bargaining. But being russian and having originated from a russian family of Volga region which lost 50% of its kids during the same starvation period I lnow very well the reasons that led to this starvation. It was not a henocide. It was an attempt to change the agricultural policy and economy of USSR. There was nothing personal against ukrainians. Later western facists used this starvation as an attempt of ukrainian henocide, in an attempt to make ukrainians kill rusians 'in return'. So the blood of victims of Odessa Khatyn is on every hand of those who believe in the crap which you have prooflessly and deliberately presented as truth...
I came here to discuss things. I came here to understand what the western people are about. What do they think about the coming war and what they will fight for. So far I see only the results of propaganda and an attempt of 1% to ruin the world but to save their superiority... And I see how eagerly this wish is supported by the slaves of such a system. This gives a creepy feeling of disgust. But knowing that in reality people are much more reserved than in the Internet i still hope that facist ideas will fade and lose to religious values of family and God. I want to hope although if you ask me for a proof I will not able to give you more proofs than I was given on 'rapes' and 'holodomor'... Which is not a single one.

I am not at all a stalinist. If I am not blaming Stalin in everything (like Khrushev did) it doesn't make me a stalinist. I told that I am center right, but it probably doesn't mean that much to you. If you want to learn more about rights and lefts - ask.

COuld you please point out some patronising words of mine about jews? I really said that all the jews I met so far were educated and clever. Maybe I shouldn't have said that in your viewpoint, but I don't have to support your belieives in russian anti-semitism... You can believe whatever you want. But I will stay my ground and use only the real rules in every debate. You want to make some extra rules for a russian? You really think I will play these rules?

You just did tell that Stalin was killing only ukrainians. So the family of the father of my granddad lost 50% of kids bviously not because of hunger but because of smth else... And I cannot tell you anything about jews? I wish you knew 5% of russian history of what I know of jewish history and traditions. Because if I was sure that you know that - it would save a lot of time.

Agree. I am too fast about it. We need to understand basic things and define basic turns before making analogies and examples. I was too fast.

Almost agree.

1. Do you understand a difference between a class of society like peasants and nation, like ...spanish? Do you know of marxist class theory and Hitler's race theory? If you do than you would understand why chinese communist would rather kiss a japanese worker then a chinese capitalist, but an italian nazist would shake hands with hungarian nazist, but would kill any black people if can... That is quite a lethal difference for a start.
2. The second difference is based on the value of supremacy and the value of equality. A communist would rather strip all the rich countrymates to the bones in order to feed the kids in distant Africa. A nazist would kill all the africans if it is needed to enrich his countrymen with a few more calories.

For now it is enough. I don't say that one is good and the other is bad. Here I just want you to give up an insane stupidity that there is zero difference between absolutely different approaches to the state. It is a difference between left and right, again. It's basic for any policy.

Good for a start. So you concentrate only on the bad features while estimating this pair... Ve-e-ery Freudian.

It is a policy afterall. The guy who was afraid to spill the blood is Yanukovich. For the moment he is justy blamed in creating a situation that led his countrymen into a civil war. If he spitted on the west and put into jail all those puppets which are part of today's junta - hundreds of innocent people all over the Ukraine would have stayed alive... Although he would have his honorable place near Hitler in western propaganda of course.

No. I am forbidden to have idols.

 

a Russian propaganda, which says a Jews can not be an ukranien patriot , a Jew just loves money

 

it may be what happens when banking was considered a less "noble" profession fit only for non Christians.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to respond as you did.

Let's just say we respectfully disagree on Putin and leave it at that.

You know my biases. I do not much like Stalin or Hitler for the same basic reasons.

Now in regards to Russian history mine is bias from the perspective of Russian Jews on one side of my family. We see it differently than would mainstream Russians for obvious reasons.

For me and my roots, anti-semitism whether it came from the Gestapo or KGB doesn't much make a difference.

That said am I aware of the suffering Hitler inflicted on Russians yes. Sobibor is an interesting stort of a camp you know I know.

That said, I am no fan of Soviet communism no.

My take on Russian chauvenism or as some call it patriotism is not that much different than with any other nation. I believe chauvenism causes wars yes. You must admit Russian history is ripe with chauvenism. That said so is British, French, American.

In the current case I do not doubt Putin sees the West as his primary threat. I see him as nothing more than a KGB officer.

What I think is this and its only my subjective opinion I concede just for the sake of talking with you. I believe the Soviet system collapsed and its old dinosaurs died out, but the young mid level Communists went nowhere and just sat out the Yeltsin years and are back. I believe they feel democracy is a failure and without government control of the economy it fails and becomes corupt.

My problem is this. What is the difference today between these former Communist mandarins and the Russian mob they are in bed with now?

You tell me, how the hell is Putin helping his people? He just sold out Russian energy to China in an absurd long term contract that will devalue the ruble and once again China has managed to avoid fluctuating market prices and lock in to a supply of energy at what will be below market prices. You call that smart?

If Putin had put his monumental little man ego to the side he would have realized the West is not his enemy his own corupt criminal syndicates are. He's a thug as far as I am concerned hired to represent these criminal syndicates,

I do not hate Russians or Russian people. I understand their loyalty to their country. I do not hate you because you are Russian or because I do not like Putin. You elect who you want. I just think its stupid you die or your fellow country men die over the Ukraine or any other conflicts with the West. Why?

This is at the heart of it an economic war to see who controls world oil prices. In the end we ordinary citizens on either side are squeezed and pay higher prices and should we die over it?

No. I would reach out and shake your hand and respect you if I met you despite our differences. This sounds worse on a forum when we debate words.

You are respected for taking the time to answer me. Appreciated.

 

Why should I, as an American citizen with more than enough on his own plate, care about what happens in Ukraine?

 

Thanks for the post in return. Our positions are different but it is good that we don't lose a common ground. This is something that prevents wars.

Any nation which recognizes itself as a nation has a chance of being acused of chauvenism. I would agree though.

It's even worse. All today's oligarchs started as members of communist party or at least Comsomol activists... All the 'mandarins' who wish to stay in power will stay there no matter what. If today US becomes communist I am sure that half of democrats and republicans will find themselves in a communist party of US. The only thing that matters for certain people is money and power. Ideology and people don't count.

You need to understand that russian policy is much easier or more complicated. None of those who are in power dreams of communist times. None. In USSR communist 'mandarins' didn't have any right to owe a factory, even a single one. They couldn't stay in a party while having a yacht and villa in France. They would have to give up their power even if they have an official mistress. What was these people advantage before the others? Special food, transport, capability of buying the goods abroad, information. That's it. Look at them nowadays! These mandarins have branches of russian economy. They have taken huge profits of russian resources and are not that eager to invest into something else...
Although I do believe that capitalistic system at least for the moment cannot even compare to communist one being dramatically efficient in competition I must admit that the only really interested side and driving force of anti-soviet democratic revolution was not the people who lost free medicine and education together with social care but the top of communist elite. For the moment this elite wants to retain in power. As always. Putin being really popular gives them such a chance. The day before NATO forces would (hypothetically) invade Moscow these very people who are now with Putin will crawl on their knees to new masters offering everything they wish but to remain in power here.

Of course it is smart. 370 USD is the price of gas fir EU. China gets it for 350. Both contracts are long term. Diversification of russian gas clients permits a maneuver which Russia hasn't had before. This will allow Putin to stay in power even without doing anything else for another 10-20 years if he wishes. He would have the money for that no matter what. Even if Ukraine blows the gas tube, north stream is damaged and south stream is never completed Rusia would survive trading to China, which will take the part of presently European market... expanding the consume of Russian gas... If Europe commits a suicide then Putin is ready not to stick his head for the same bullet.

He makes this syndicates himself. He started as an enemy of all-mighty Berezovsky and ambitious and popular Khodorkovsky. At that moment he had just some people in FSB and police. Putin started being thretened by one of the islamic terrorist commanders. Look at what he made himself now. I am not a blind fan of Putin but it is impossible not to see the progress he has made.
Is he an independent figure? Yes, he is. Is he influenced by people surrounding him? Yes, he is. Are these people criminals? Yes, they are. As anyone who came into power with the help of money and gets money because of having come into power.

Independence is never purchased for any other price than blood of countrymen dying for such an independence. Show me a country which received independence without a single drop of blood!

Tough question. Big criminals who came into power in biggest countries of the world are really making a war because of economical reasons. They are leading the nations who are kept under control by bread and shows. But it really turns out that it is them who represent the best people of the nation. When Bush tells "Ladies and Gentlemen... We got him" or H.Clinton says: "Wow!" looking at the pity end of her political enemy - I understand that these people are not kind-hearted. But I admit that they are able to come into power, to stay there and to solve the problems being there. I can't do the same. Even voting or not voting wouldn't change that much. Anyway the one who invests more into election campaign wins. But am I dying for the economical reasons? I don't think so. The reason is not his pocket but my country. Russia will definetely outlive Putin. And his pages of history would not be the only or the last. In this case of western cultural invasion Putin and his team is the allies of russians. And since they remain allies it will make no sense to fight with them.

It is not vital for the West to admit that USSR was an unsuccesful experiment of an alternative to capitalist economy and show policy. But it is the West who chose intentionally to breed a generation which sees no differences between absolutely different Hitler and Stalin. West doesn't need to supress russians in the Ukraine or syrians in Syria. But it is them who chose that. If West comes with peaceful initiatives and learns to respect the differences between cultures and traditions of different people and countries - the world would have another chance. But for that the West will have to admit that their political and economical policy os neither perfect nor the only possible. It doesn't need even to refuse of it themselves. Just to admit that other people can also be right and deserve at least a chance to make mistake at their own risk and costs.

 

Some Jews and not Jews love money more then any principles of decent behavior. Perhaps, this guy is of the sort. Essentially, Kiev's Maidan rulers gave many seats of anti Semitic party named Svoboda ("Freedom"). This is one outright anti Semitic part of this never elected government:
http://dearkitty1.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/svoboda-party-anti-semitism-in-ukraine/

These people do not respect any Jews just like their hero Stephan Bandera did.

- - - Updated - - -

Some Jews and not Jews love money more then any principles of decent behavior. Perhaps, this guy is of the sort. Essentially, Kiev's Maidan rulers gave many seats of anti Semitic party named Svoboda ("Freedom"). This is one outright anti Semitic part of this never elected government:
http://dearkitty1.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/svoboda-party-anti-semitism-in-ukraine/

These people do not respect any Jews just like their hero Stephan Bandera did.

 

Again Yaz you take the time to write out a well thought out response. I admire the fact you can write in English which is not your original language so well. I will keep this brief. I think a lot of us in the West support a free Ukrainian state but no we do not want anyone whether they are Russians in the Ukraine, or any group that is a minority being persecuted. I want to say this as well. I express political opinions on this forum to you and they sound harsh. I only mean them for discussion. Bottom line is I do really think the problems between the Ukrainians and Russians should be settled between them. I do not really believe I know better than you about your country. I feel the same respect for Ukrainians. I don't presume to tell them what to do either. I just want you both to live in respect of one another and in an ideal world we are all allies. I appreciate their are age old conflicts.

Let me say it this way.As a Jew we have been hated wherever we went. So it lends to an existentialist approach to life. Wherever we went it comes down to a basic struggle to exist and the meaning comes out of the struggle to exist. We re-created a country basically because we had nowhere else to go. We had no intention of hurting Palestinians and yet we did. Politics sucks. No matter what anyone does someone else is hurt it seems.

Some days I just wish we could all sit in a bar and laugh at the same thing no matter who the hell we are. I have seen some bad stuff. It just taught me we all look the same when we blow up and that is a stupid way to learn we are all basically the same.

I am sure you wonder sometimes, how the hell is it Russia has such brilliant musicians, such brilliant artists and writers, and yet from that same society comes some ruthless killers as well. What is it in any society that we produce both? How does a country with such amazing elaborate artistic expression also have such suffering on its hands. Not just your society but all of ours.

All these tribal wars I wish they could end.

 

How about us, Americans? We have a good Constitution, made plenty of discoveries, sent Americans to the Moon and yet, we have Guantanamo, messed in Iraq, Syria and now we are instigated civil war in Ukraine.

Russia is much happier country now. Average Russians are not as rich as we are, but they are happy with what they have and they eat healthier and better food.