What do you people want?

I need to ask you.

Would you RATHER (as you post and visit here), bear witness to tired, stale, 'liberals versus conservatives' pisssing contests?

Do you really want to see hard-left guys and girls posting links to liberal web site articles, and then see hard-right guys and girls posting links to conservative web site articles in retaliation?

Is it really all about the Dems at war with the Republicans for you?
Is that what it necessarily HAS to boil down to?


Or would some of you rather hear fresh ideas and uncomfortable opinions from guys and girls who DON'T subscribe to the lock-step mind-set of "it's either hard-left or it's hard-right, and there is nothing in between"?

Why is it a source of anger and discomfort each and every time an independent free-thinker makes a post here?
Why the rush to find some fragment of 'my side' or 'their side' in that independent poster's writings, and then sweep that poster into one convenient box or the other?

Are you unwilling to admit that everything is NOT black or white, but rather that there are the grays in between?

The uncomfortable, disconcerting grays in between.
Why do they make many of you so upset?

 

Unfortunately I think it more like a damn sporting event - with all the Monday quarterbacks grumbling in the coco about this outrage or that outrage

 

yes, the quality on this site is... lacking to say the least. I mostly come here becuase it feels good to be a smug smart ass when pointing out the endless errors here.

 

Sporting contest, hobby, smug self-satisfaction, trolling. All those are ongoing factors regarding why perhaps the bulk of dedicated political posters do this sort of thing; and let's face facts, once you dig into the nuances of policies things become boring and hopelessly complex very fast.

On the other hand some posters learn things while indulging in their hobby. I find that the quickest way to comprehend a complex policy issue is to read political forums because of the lines drawn in the sand. There are always a plethora of competing links and conflicting facts and statistics. More to the point you get the peculiar insights of loyal partisans for both sides or (better yet) all sides of an issue.

Consider the NSA spying issue or the IRS scandal or the Bergdahl swap (and yesterday Obama released more GITMO prisoners without the MSM saying a word about it). Yes, you can read what house organs like ABC or Fox News or MSNBC or The Huffington Post say about an issue but if you do that the chances are great that you will get only a tiny slice of slanted information. You want to really gains some depth and insight though, take a mental tip-toe through the opinions and information blitz of an active political forum.

What do people want? They wanna have fun and perhaps be informed . . . perhaps.

 

Very keen insights, Gatewood.

Thank you.

 

No, I want to see this standard pissing contest end and both sides learn to live with each other in peace and grow up and realize that we don't have to be the same, that we all have the right to live as individuals in a truly respectful and tolerant society that actually looks out for each other.

But that's a pipe dream.

This crap is not going to end soon because people are too emotionally invested in their ideology.

 

Thanks sparquelito. I don't know about 'keen' but they are sincere . . .

 

It's not the ideas that are the problem. It's the inflexibility of the ideas. You can defy every categorization in the world. But if you still cling to your beliefs in a rigid and uncompromising manner where you are unable to listen openly to challenges or concede valid points made by opponents, then you are no different than anyone else. Instead of a left wing or right wing idealogue, you're just an individualist idealogue. And so rather than providing a fresh new perspective, you're just creating a new opponent for everyone else in the dogma arena.

 

What do I want? I'll want to be able to sit down and eat a burrito, light a joint and and read the Quran and have y'all pay for it. Might as well get the hang of this now versus later. Right or Left the country is going down the toilet and it seems that most would rather urinate/defacate on each other than to sit down and discuss their differences and come to some common ground. Try to discuss an issue and be called a homophobe, anti immigrant, redneck, racist etc, in an attempt to shut down discussions.

I realize a LONG time ago that it makes no difference which party is in power as they all work in the same whore house. Working for the good of the country is an accidental byproduct of what they end up actually doing.

 

Forgive me, but are you addressing me, or are you addressing the other independent free-thinkers who have ever posted here?

And If it is me that you are addressing, what exactly leads you to the conclusion that I am inflexible and unwilling to listen?

 

Individualist ideologue? Never heard of one before, but cool! At least that's better than being an authoritarian ideologue, wouldn't you say?

 

No. Because it's the exact same thing. You seem to be misapplying my definition of individualist. I don't mean in terms of promoting individual liberty. I mean in terms of only being loyal to one's own individualist dogma. And still being every bit as overbearing, uncompromising, and authoritarian about the application of those ideas as anyone belonging to any organized political group. You're not liberating anyone. You're just forcing them to serve a different master.

That wasn't a direct jab at you. So I hope you didn't take it that way. I have no idea what your flexibility looks like. You might be very reasonable for all I know. Which would be very refreshing on this forum. I was just speaking generally about a trend I've noticed among people over the years who condemn the rigidity of both sides and promote a non-partisan individual approach while maintaining a rather ironic rigidity with their own beliefs.

In reality, even the strong left/right divide isn't that much of a problem overall. It's the inability to concede valid points and the desperate need to be right despite the facts that messes everything up. Which almost everyone seems to be guilty of no matter what they believe.

 

I come here to read other opinions. I do like opinions with explanations and reasoning that delivers the opinions. I do not care to see a link to a "news" column. Read the column and give me your opinion. For those who agree with me, and you know who they are, are highly intelligent posters with strong reasoning powers and plenty of life's experience. Those that disagree with me are people who have little experience in the real world, live on theories, use words that sound pleasing, or just call me names, and they have a lot to learn. Other than that I have no opinion.

 

Well I have no problem with someone who wants to find something other than the established left vs. right system, and while it is more ideological to believe in a multi-colored perspective of the world, belief is irrelevant to the facts of the situations. if you don't believe me, take any issue as single focus and tell me where the gray area is.
Abortions?
Marriage Equality?
Civil rights?

No mater how you want to cut it, there are basically only 2 sides to every coin, and people will line up on one side or the other depending on what their personal view is on the subject at hand. Just as an example, please tell me what the middle ground is on Abortions? Should women and their families have the right to chose or not? How is there a 3rd option to this? You either side with the idea of protecting unborn fetuses, or you side with the idea of protecting women's health and lives.

Most issues are the same factor, you have 2 options, and a 3rd option would either benefit one side more than the other, or it would just add to the confusion. You can free think all you want, most liberals already do, but logical minds generally reach the same conclusions, as do emotional minds. People in this country have established their political views and ideas, and it's just a matter of picking a side that most or best represents your values. If you have values that are mixed up, then you need to weigh your options and decide what is more important to you.

 

I want to be left alone. Progressives (both republican and democrat) want to run my life; therefore, I am against anything progressive.

 

I perceived no slight, Unifier.
I just wanted to make sure whether I was the subject of that particular discussion or not.

I will respectfully part ways with you on one point;
The strong left/right divide IS a major problem for this nation.

Because the whole while a large majority of our voting-age taxpayers are at each other's throats over all this left-versus-right nonsense, their elected crooked politicians are playing them like violins, and robbing all of us blind.

Robbing us of our freedoms, our liberties, our tax dollars, and our very way of life.

These crooks in Washington DC (both Parties, truly) WANT us to be polarized and divided.
Because it makes so many of us take our eye off the ball, and allows them to run roughshod over all of us, and to run up even more debt, all in the name of their pet programs, crooked kickbacks, and immoral, self-serving schemes.

 

I figure this is really what people want. I post original thoughts, & any threads i start are not cut & pastes from somewhere else, but my own thoughts. Many of them fizzle & are hardly responded to. Like this:
http://www.politicalforum.com/political-opinions-beliefs/361854-pharaohs-dream.html

This is a deeper philosophical post, & most of the time threads like this might go a page or 2, but die down quickly. But a controversial one, attacking atheism, or making generalizations about islam or christianity will get lots of views. I even did an experiment with this..
http://www.politicalforum.com/other...-creationist-birthers-polar-bear-hunting.html

 

Maybe we can find more common ground on The Beer Thread.

 

Good question, Sparquelito. What I want/would like to see would be an actual progression of thought, among intelligent and interested persons.
I had a guy in the cab today who was raised Texan, of pure Pakistani descent. Great opportunity. We discussed how a young man comes up with the influences of his elders, peers, and stereotypes. At many points, the man must emulate Bhudda, in meditation beside the pond. His demons arise out of the water, and he has the choice to confront them (consider at length and come to terms), accept them (be ruled by them), or die. We didn't discuss his or my beliefs, but so much of Bhudda simply must be considered by an intelligent being that it was in perfect context. With him, it was the perfect place to interject this little joke/anecdote:
What do you call a Brown Man who is flying an airplane?
Answer: The pilot! -you bigot!
We spoke of how he had been a Weldor for a company that does refinery refitments when he was young, invincible, and immortal. This stuff makes a man as strong as he will ever be, and makes him impervious to any doubt of his worthiness or "manliness". He said that it compels a man to run with his abilities, and work more with his mind for a better life. That statement was made viable by the fact of his attire, and that I was taking him to Caesars Palace.
That's what I want, from this board, and in my daily encounters. Whether it's something familiar to me, or compelling enough to invite my familiarity. Thoughts and people who enlarge my comprehension and appreciation of the lived experience.
I would like to believe that once in a great while, the process of cerebral progression established here would be worth mentioning to our governing bodies. Ah, one can dream. For what it's worth, I like to read what Hoosier8 puts up. He's in my camp.

 

I can sympathize with the OP sentiment, but there are a number of factors that make the argument vitriolic.

First and foremost, vitriol is the normal state of political discourse. Ancient Athens was just short of mob rule (Socrates and Pericles would have argued against "short of.") You want vitriol? Read the back-and-forth between Jefferson and Hamilton. Would you care to be verbally assaulted by guys with that command of the language? Political vitriol spilled into fierce-fought civil war in the 1860s. One good thing about the Civil War, the temperature of debate dropped off a bunch after Appomattox. The Second World War and the Cold War tended to damp down the temperature in the face of a common and very real danger. But now that menace is gone - for now.

Second point is that the nature of government militates against compromise. Any student of government knows it usually moves by very small increments rather than giant leaps. Giant leaps do happen but only under extreme pressure. Americans want change but only slowly enough that they adjust. Evolution is preferred over revolution. On the other hand the astute person knows that the glacier moves slowly but inexorably. Once the governmental leviathan begins to move it is very difficult to stop or reverse, so every tiny change MUST be fought over furiously to avoid letting the leviathan grind onward.

Third point: Over the last thirty years the centralized control of information flow has disappeared. At one time the national conversation was controlled by a group of people smaller than that of people who could start a nuclear war or formulate Coca-Cola from scratch. When Uncle Walter questioned the Vietnam War during the Tet offensive, there was nobody to contest him, so the whole national conversation changed within a few weeks. After Uncle Walter asked "What the hell is going on here?" being anti-war was no longer the exclusive purview of "long-haired hippie-type pinko (*)(*)(*)(*)" any more That night was the apogee of credibility of what now called the legacy mainstream media. In the late seventies people began questioning what they were hearing from the MSM. At first it was only the incoherent talk radio medium. As the Internet grew, alternative sources of information - true, false, or mixed - began. In the late Nineties the Monica story grabbed America by the ears and rubbed their noses in the obvious fact they were being lied to by the MSM (in this case mostly ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, CNN, the NYT and the WaPo) and that a lie could be passive (spiking a true story) as well as outright. A few years later, Dan Rather didn't get the memo and ran the TANG documents and buried MSM credibility once and for all. People sought alternative sources. Salt to taste. As a result there is no common ground that cannot be contested. Without common ground, vitriol is inevitable.

The Framers built a safety valve into their governmental system - the federal system. The Framers felt that having thirteen (now 50)
legislatures allowed local differences to be worked out locally. If one state got it brilliantly right or dismally wrong it would be instructive to the rest. That system worked pretty well until Abolitionism got strong. The Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments disrupted that structure. The Sixteenth and particularly the Seventeenth Amendments crippled the original balance. A slew of federal statutes and court decisions have reduced the states to mere local satrapies of national organizations.

As a result every issue is a federal issue and is grist for the partisan mill. One more point to fight over.

The US system of plurality plus one equals a winner locks in a two party system. The split government make governing a team game and partisanship is inevitable. The only other alternative - proportional representation - has produced such laughable results in Europe that one of the few things Americans can agree on is that although they may not like the US Congress, they don't want to see it become the Italian Parliament. Even the British -who should have parliamentary government down by now do some powerfully dumb things at times.

Another point: America (and others) are vindicating Socrates. People have found they can vote themselves wealth and the Republic is divided into communities of workers and moochers. This was tolerable when the moochers were vastly outnumber by worker, but that calculus has disappeared. Moochers and producers are in roughly equal numbers. The producers realize they are being screwed and are becoming restive.

 

Good posts, all.

Thought-provoking and interesting.

Thanks.

 

Let's face it. We come here anonymously because we can vent in ways we can't around our friends and family.

And we don't have to be answerable for it.

 

In other words, the rabble has really taken this place over. I can easily understand why I rarely see many of this forums most accomplished posters anymore.
A lot of the discussion is what you might expect from a middle school class room after the teacher has slipped from the room.

 

I personally see a lot of threads here that seem to come from the same posters - often using different names!

If if isn't about LGBT, it's slamming Christianity, or belittling Israel and supporting Palestine, or .... you all know what I'm talking about. It seems as if a machine is scanning the internet and then cranking out the same propaganda over and over again. It also appears that, when certain keywords appear, the same posters jump on with their prepared responses that have the originality of a monkey jumping on a keyboard.