Omnipotence = Omniresponsibility

Because everything done by anyone ever was already predestined. No one had a choice but the one who did the predestiny.
Unless the create isn't omni all things.

 

These images of god, contributing to it human traits including our psychological condition are necessarily false. We made god in our own image. That is why he is imagined as a dangerous, jealous, angry, vengeful, spoiled brat, and certainly not someone you would want to have dinner with.

For if god does exist, it is not psychologically like human beings. In fact, there is no way for the human brain, which operates in time, to ever imagine what god is, and certainly we cannot ever know that which is immeasurable, timeless.

For intelligence to operate when it comes to god, we must comprehend, to the depth of our being, that we have no way of imagining god, and any image we create of it is false. And we have to see that all images created by the brain are missing the mark. That it is simply impossible to have a valid image. And stop with the foolishness in incessantly creating them, and then believing in the image we created. For that is exactly what religions do. They create an image, and then they believe in their own imagination, and generally this is dangerous to other humans who do not believe in what our brains created.

One can think there is something called god, a creator, an intelligent cosmic consciousness without all of these damned images. And we can think that since god does exist, that this give meaning to life, and gives it some purpose. But we seem to demand much more than that from these self created images. The reasons for this can be discovered, and that is what we should concern ourselves with. You won't kill others or hurt others in god's name if you take this approach. And that would be a start that perhaps even god might like.

 

That's just not true. Omnipotence and omniscience do not necessitate predestination nor rule out free will.

 

In christianity, we are bound by the will of the omni everything God. Nothing done without prior knowledge of it being done. Unless somehow someone can do something that this being doesn't know. But then there goes omni all.

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So one can do something that isn't known to the creator.

 

I don't think you read what you responded to, because that's obviously not what I said.

 

I guess not. Why not explain yourself.
You claim there does not need to be predestination. And we could have free will.

Which implies, we can make choices. We can do something not planned on our own.
But, IMO, we can never do anything, make a choice, that is not already known. By Omniscience.

 

I think you're confusing terms. That the future is known does not eliminate choice. If you're about to play a game of basketball, and I look into a crystal ball and see how you'll perform, that doesn't take away any of your own choices or your free will. Omniscience does not preclude free will.

 

Because he is in a unique position to prevent them - he can stop them with essentially zero effort and has the knowledge and power to do so. Furthermore, he is responsible for the events in the first place, since he created the universe and the causal chain that led to these events.

We could still achieve great things without abject poverty. In fact, we achieve much more. This is easy to see if you compare the cultural output of wealthy Western nations to more impoverished nations whose citizens spend their entire lives simply surviving.

Do you allow your children to slaughter and torture each other? Any parent who did would be considered a monster.

And when the bounds necessitate a single choice, we have no free will at all. This is the case when God knows what is going to happen beforehand.

If you know something will happen with certainty, how could it not be predestined?

So it depends here what you mean by "take away your choices." Of course it doesn't destroy your sense or feeling of choice, but it does destroy the possibility of you doing anything other than what's in the crystal ball. Free will is simply the ability to do otherwise - the ability to pass to one player or another in a game of basketball. If a crystal ball knows which player you are going to pass to, then everything is already set and you are simply a cog in a complex machine.

 

great post!

they try so hard to make Omni-everything and free will coexist, and fail every single time.

another example of relying on 2000 year old 'thought'. the implications of doing so are always lost on 'em.

 

You're wrong. If you see a crystal ball and know how I'm going to play. That means I can't change 1 single thing about how you saw me play. My choice were already made. Unless you didn't see everything. Because, if I do 1 thing differently, you didn't see how I'll perform. You only saw most of it. Therefore, not omniscient.
Or if you did see everything, and I can't possibly change from what you say. Therefore, no free will for me.

So, clarify for me what you mean. I still don't get it. How is pre-known not = to predestined?

 

They simple do not know what they're talking about. Most of them.
You can not have a known future, and deviate from that future. Impossible. Unless the future is not entirely known.

 

that's it in a nutshell. of course the great flaw lies in the claim of omniscience - thus the trap. MUST believe god is omniscient else he's not god, but MUST also believe in free will else he's a despotic bastard.

you lie down with bronze age primitives, you wake up with .... bronze age fleas.

 

It also could be the perspective it is viewed from. I in the present, am making choices, not knowing the outcome of the choices. But, the choices I made were known and could not in any way shape or form be any different from the unknown choices I made.

 

You don't have to fully understand God to believe in Him.

Well, that God is only a loving God is the Christian perspective. This is why it is difficult for Christian theologians to account for the evil in the world.

But you cannot possibly put yourself if His shoes. You are not most wise, and you do not have the capacity to be all wise. You are merely human, and your opinion on what you would if you were God are based on the limited faculties of the human mind.

No; man is God's creation, and it is God who is ruler of the universe. He does not need anything thing from us, but it is we we who need him and thus ask Him for forgiveness.

 

Well sure, it would be known - but that isn't predestined. I used the crystal ball example (with you and myself) because if I had a crystal ball, I still wouldn't have any control over you, I couldn't force you to change (and in this case, wouldn't try to). So I know ahead of time what your actions will be - that is all.

Predestination requires not pre-knowledge, but pre-choice in some manner. Typically, with Calvinism, it means that God has chosen who will go to Heaven before they are born. Though it's still based on grace, there's a very real element of control because (in this case of predestination) God has basically set who would truly accept grace. In the other (more radical than typical Calvinism) example used by I think the Westminster Church, predestination means that all things that occur were chosen to occur by God.

That is the far far far less commonly held view, but it is by far the one most commonly criticized, as if it is the common view. I've always found this surprising with non-theist criticisms of Christianity - they focus on the views rarely held be Christians, the ones that are particularly easy to poke fun (or holes) at. It's almost as if they are choosing straw men. It'd be like criticizing the Democrats for wanting to ban voluntary individual prayers in schools. Some actually do want to do that [when I was in the 3rd grade at a public school, one teacher took it upon herself to interpret the SCOTUS ruling banning school prayer to mean that I couldn't pray before eating lunch, and so put me in a "quiet room" for "troubled students" when I said the prayer even after she told me not to"]. But they are by far a small minority of the Democrats (I'd guess a small single digit percentage of the whole), so it is silly to criticize them.

 

He is not responsible for the events. Is a mother in her 90s responsible for what her 70yo son does? She made him.

Of course not. Being the prime mover doesn't set full responsibility for all at the feet of the deity, that's just silly. We are so far removed from when creation would be (regardless of your perspective - we're even so far removed from the 6000yr creationist's eyes), that what happens is a result of a chain of choices made by individuals with free will.

And again, this goes back to my original point - he can stop them, but only by violating free will.

No, free will isn't the ability to do other than what the crystal ball showed you would do. Look, the crystal ball doesn't have some magic powers to force you to do something, it simply shows the choices that you will make. It does not mean that what I see in the crystal ball is not something you specifically chose to do of your own free will.

 

It seems apparent to me that God has bound our capabilities to the laws of nature. Maybe you are aware of some supernatural capabilities, I am not.

 

Native Americans might disagree. But what is it that you are achieving? Do you believe suffering at age 70 is somehow more noble than suffering at age 50? How much value do you place on that additional 20 years when evaluated in the grand scope of eternity?

It's interesting to note the amount of emphasis in this thread on suffering and death. Certainly things we naturally attempt to avoid, but certainly not evidence of the absence of love. How many mothers and fathers throughout time have sent their children to war? Do you believe they did this absent of love?

How is "single choice" relevant to the post you quoted?

 

I have been a lutheran, Missouri Synod for the bulk of my life. So, I'm not a non theist. However, I haven't practiced Lutheranism in about 5 yrs or so.
If all is know before hand, and not one single thing can change, that is predestined. Whether you want to call it that or not. Not much to argue about in that.

It is not a small amount of christians that believe god is omni everything. Therefore God has predestined everything. I am free to make my already known choices. But I can't change my choices from what is already known.

 

If the mother knows everything the son will do, and if some of that is to harm others and she has the full power to stop her son, YES, she is responsible. In reality, she doesn't know.

NOPE. Because there is no free will if all events are known. There is only following the script.

You lose me again. If I see into the crystal ball, and know exactly what I will do and I can not change anything about what I see, that is predesinty, IMO. How can it not be?

 

I am saying, if there is an omni everything God, he has bound our capabilities in every aspect. Every action is already known and unchangeable.

 

At His discretion, no doubt.

 

A mother is not omniscient and omnipotent, so I don't see the usefulness of the analogy here. Not to mention, creating humanity (and the universe) from scratch is quite different from having a kid.

We're not "so far removed" when the creator is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. In a sense, he is responsible for every little good or evil that happens anywhere, because he set up the universe such that things would be just so. If he wanted things to change, he could have altered initial conditions, done more miracles, or whatever.

He doesn't need to "violate free will" - he can just change the initial conditions of the universe or alter the environment around you just a little bit so he achieves any result he desires. You of course still "freely" choose whatever God has planned...

Free will means there are no crystal balls.

 

OH, the quickly moving goal posts? How wonderful.

Since you don't get the crystal ball example, even in your way of looking at it, God adjusting to account for what he then saw in the future - in the crystal ball - then he is already violating free will. To adjust for the perfect world you desire is to violate free will.

No, it doesn't.

 

As any child quickly learns, if you make things up then you'd better be consistent. This is the problem with God and omnipotence. It's an old argument but apparently one not yet resolved. But there's hope for Christians, standing by reading to assist are plenty of clever minds which can create work-arounds:

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/objections.html 1 to 3.

1. God loves us but not that much.
2. God loves us but loves the entertainment we give more.
3. God loves us and gives us the ability to hurt each other because otherwise we wouldn't love Him.