First Contact

Ask yourself some questions. As a species, do we invest our limited resources into progressing and advancing our species. Or do we invest our limited resources into stagnation and reverting backwards? Do Australians invest their limited resources into cultures that want to progress and advance our civilisation through science and technology, or invest our limited resources into a culture that is stagnate and relies on superstitions?

The Aboriginal people might have one of the oldest cultures on the planet, but what have they achieved in those 50,000 years? Tribes of hunter gathers for the entire 50,000 without any progress. What has our civilisations achieved in the past 5,000 years. We have went from being tribes of hunter gathers to the edge of our solar system; cure diseases; created technology and science.

Seriously, which civilisations should be given our limited resources, considering we need to escape this rock for our species to survive?

 

The possibility of us (mankind) being able to "escape" this planet and colonise another is a long long long way off. Firstly, if or when we can travel at or near the speed of light it would take 10 years to get to the nearest solar system, 1000's of years to get to the nearest galaxy. The nearest presumed inhabitable planet itself is 13 light years away.

Maybe in some distant future, for now I would be ;looking at making earth a more sustainable place to live, maybe soon we will all be out hunting Kangaroos.

But you have shown your hypocrisy on this subject as you have on others, and it is not just me that has picked up on it. You can't have it YOUR way all the time, that IS childish.

 

For god sake man - get a grip on reality, and stop living in the past!!

How many civilisations/countries throughout history have had their countries invaded, and have had genocide enacted upon their inhabitants by the invaders or their ENTIRE populations enslaved?

Anyone would think that the Aboriginal people are somehow special, and they are the ONLY people on the bloody planet to have experienced their country or village being invaded, and been treated bad by the invading army.

You propose to be an enlightened and educated man. Well start reading some bloody history, and you might discover that the Aboriginal people are NOT the first group of people to have their country invaded, and to be treated mean by their conquerors. It so damn embarrassing and humiliating for adults to act like whingy whiny big babies all the time.

So get over it mate, and move beyond 1788. I doubt there would be any Aboriginal people alive today that could name their families back to 1788, that would still be seeking generational revenge.

Does this mean I have a legitimate right to seek generational revenge on the Romans/Italians, who invaded my country and village, and killed my ancestors, or are the Aboriginal people sacrosanct?

 

The only thing sacrosanct is your opinion.

Let's start with YOUR lack of history knowledge. Our persecution and attempted destruction of the Australian Indigenous peoples didn't end in 1788 .... it started in 1788.

When did it end, well officially in 1964 with their recognition as humans ... here is some history lessons. Now these are humans, people, with emotions and feelings.

In 1908 all Australian Aged persons are entitled to the aged pension, excluding Aboriginals.
1912 Maternity allowance for all Australians except Aboriginals.

1914 Beginning of WWI. Approximately 400 to 500 Aboriginal children continue to be removed from their families during the period 1914 to 1918, including children whose fathers are overseas at war.

Aboriginal people serve in the war despite the Defence Act 1909 which prohibits any person not of ‘substantially European’ origin from serving. Aboriginal soldiers are among Australian troops at Gallipoli.

1927 Family endowment for all Australians but not the Indigenous.

World War II begins. Although Aboriginal people are not recognised as citizens, two Aboriginal military units are established and some Aboriginal people serve in other sections of the armed forces as formally enlisted soldiers, sailors or airmen. Aboriginal people serve in Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific and New Guinea.

Aboriginal children continue to be removed from their families during the period 1939 to 1945, including children whose fathers are at war overseas.

1948 The Commonwealth Citizenship and Nationality Act for the first time makes all Australians, including all Aboriginal people, Australian citizens. But at state level they still suffer legal discrimination.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is adopted by the newly-formed United Nations and supported by Australia.

Melbourne’s first Moomba festival is staged. Approached about naming the festival, Aboriginal people suggest “Moomba”, telling the officials it means “Let’s get together and have fun!” Actually meaning “up your bum” the name was adopted and is still used.

1967 In the Commonwealth 1967 Referendum more than 90% vote to empower the Commonwealth to legislate for all Aboriginal people and open means for them to be counted in the census. Hopes fly high that constitutional discrimination will end. It also empowers the federal government to legislate for Aboriginal people in the states and share responsibility for Aboriginal affairs with state governments. All states except Queensland abandon laws and policies that discriminate against Aboriginal people. The first census fully including Aboriginal people is in 1971.

then here are these gems

1816. Appin massacre. New South Wales Governor Macquarie sent parties against the Gundungurra and Dharawal people along the Cataract River, a tributary of the Nepean River (south of Sydney), allegedly in reprisal over their encroachments against white farms in the Nepean and Cowpastures districts. The British raiding parting split in two at Bent's Basin, with one group moving south-west against the Gundungurra, and the other moving south-east against the Dharawal. This latter group came upon Cataract Gorge, where the soldiers used their horses to force men, women and children to fall from the cliffs of the gorge, to their deaths below.[8] The occurrence of the Cataract Gorge (or Appin) Massacre is confirmed by Heritage NSW and the University of Western Sydney.[9] On April 17, around 1 am soldiers arrived at a camp of Dharawal people at Appin. Captain Willis from the party of soldiers wrote: "The fires were burning but deserted. A few of my men heard a child cry [...] The dogs gave the alarm and the natives fled over the cliffs. It was moonlight. I regret to say some (were) shot and others met their fate by rushing in despair over the precipice. Fourteen dead bodies were counted in different directions."[10]

1838. On 26 January Waterloo Creek massacre, also known as the Slaughterhouse Creek or Australia Day massacre. A Sydney mounted police detachment, despatched by the Lieutenant Governor of New South Wales Colonel Kenneth Snodgrass, attacked an encampment of Kamilaroi people at a place called Waterloo Creek in remote bushland.[13] official reports spoke of between 8 and 50 killed.[14] The missionary Lancelot Threkeld set the number at 120 as part of his campaign to garner support for his Mission.[15] Threkeld also claimed Major James Nunn later boasted they had killed from two to three hundred natives, a statement at odds with his own claim, and both not based on any direct evidence but endorsed by historian Roger Milliss.[16] Other estimates range from 40 to 70, but judge that most of the Kamilaroi were wiped out; as the band involved was only part of the tribe, this is hard to reconcile.[17]
1838. Myall Creek massacre - 10 June: 28 people killed at Myall Creek near Inverell, New South Wales. This was the first Aboriginal massacre for which white European and black African settlers were successfully prosecuted. Several colonists had previously been found not guilty by juries despite the weight of evidence and one colonist found guilty had been pardoned when his case was referred to Britain for sentencing. Eleven men were charged with murder but were initially acquitted by a jury. On the orders of the Governor, a new trial was held using the same evidence and seven of the eleven men were found guilty of the murder of one Aboriginal child and hanged. In his book, Blood on the Wattle, journalist Bruce Elder says that the successful prosecutions resulted in pacts of silence becoming a common practice to avoid sufficient evidence becoming available for future prosecutions.[18] Another effect, as one contemporary Sydney newspaper reported, was that poisoning Aboriginal people became more common as "a safer practice". Many massacres were to go unpunished due to these practices,[18] as what is variously called a 'conspiracy' or 'pact' or 'code' of silence fell over the killings of Aboriginal people.[19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36]
1838. In about the middle of the year at Gwydir River. A war of extirpation, according to local magistrate Edmund Denny Day, was waged all along the Gwydir River in mid-1838. 'Aborigines in the district were repeatedly pursued by parties of mounted and armed stockmen, assembled for the purpose, and that great numbers of them had been killed at various spots’.[37]
1838. In July 1838 men from the Bowman, Ebden and Yaldwyn stations in search of stolen sheep shot and killed 14 Aboriginal people at a campsite near the confluence of the Murrumbidgee and Murray Rivers in New South Wales.[38]
1830s & 1840s. The Murrumbidgee Wiradjuri Wars: Clashes between European settlers and Wiradjuri were very violent, particularly around the Murrumbidgee. The loss of fishing grounds and significant sites and the killing of Aboriginal people was retaliated through attacks with spears on cattle and stockmen. In the 1850s there were still corroborees around Mudgee but there were fewer clashes. Known ceremony continued at the Murrumbidgee into the 1890s. European settlement had taken hold and the Aboriginal population was in temporary decline.
1841. On 27 August. The Rufus River massacre, various estimates - between 16-50.[39]
1842. Evans Head massacre - the 1842 massacre of 100 Bundjalung Nation tribes-people at Evans Head by Europeans, was variously said to have been in retaliation for the killing of 'a few sheep', or the killing of 'five European men' from the 1842 'Pelican Creek tragedy'. It is also referred to as the 'Goanna Headland massacre'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians
and these are just some of them ..... This will not end until small minded people who cannot see beyond there own sad little lives grow up

 

First point, I'm very much in favour of self-determination for everyone. Within the law, live your life as you will. As a society I expect us to be progressive, not in the political sense, but progressive in the sense of learning, technology, scientific inquiry, all of that stuff.

Second point, at least in Australia, we are treading water. We are not progressing. We're stuck and much of it has to do with the second-rate politicians we have in a second-rate political system.

When it comes to indigenous people again, self-determination. If people want to live in isolated communities in near-traditional lifestyle then that's fine with me. I won't promote it, but I won't decry it either. Those who come from that background and want to get away from it should be offered assistance for their own development - education and training for example. Then let them make their own decisions as individuals.

We've turned into a mob of selfish bastards and it's hurting us.

 

What would happen if every Australian wanted to live an unsustainable lifestyle, and expected other people to financially support them?

Why is it acceptable for Aboriginal people to be financially supported to live unsustainable lifestyles, but not Australians?

I would like to live on an Island with the beach at my doorstep because of my spiritual connection to the water, not work, and receive welfare, due to my personal unsustainable lifestyle. Does this mean YOU and every other Australian must work to financially support my personal choice and self determination?

How many Aboriginal people do you see participating in work for the dole programs. Oh that's right - NONE. They don't legally have to participate to get their welfare benefits, like Australians have to work 25 hours per week.

Aboriginals just have to scoot off to some unsustainable outback community, and sit on their arses all day drinking grog, and pretend they have some spiritual connection to the land to receive their welfare benefits.

 

Whats your point in constantly raking up the past - I don't get it? You know even with $10's of billions in financial help over the decades, these outback communities are unsustainable from a biological and financial perspective, and were detrimental to the prosperity and welfare of the indigenous people. So what do you want for them now? To stagnate and rot in unsustainable remote areas?

 

What the hell are you raving on about now, who says that "they" want that, YOUR ONLY CONTRIBUTION to the debate is to rehash and support the stereotypical view of all the other bogans. You do realise that you are a dying breed, that informed and enlightened people can see past the propaganda spread by those that don't wish to acknowledge what has happened.

You can rave on until the cows come home about what happened to others, even your ancestors, it will not change what happened here.

... so this justifies our treatment of those that have suffered.

Your arguments are often based on contradictions, where YOU contradict yourself.

Your comments here on this subject really show your prejudices and hypocrisy.

Your absolute unwillingness to look at the facts, like this .... in 2001, 52% of Indigenous people aged 15 and over were in the labour force compared with 63% of the total population in the same age group. That's only an 11% difference, considering the prejudices that are still active and prevalent, by your own admission

That's just the comments you get, imagine what happens when ever anyone does employ Indigenous workers, you stated it happens to you, and I have seen it happen daily to my partner and her son.

So .... we have invaded their land ... that's gone, cannot be undone.
.... we have murdered thousands of them like some sort of feral animal interferes with us. ... ok we don't do that "much" anymore.
.... we classified them as virtually non human for 200 years.
.... we have destroyed their language by making it illegal to speak it, removing children from families and peoples from their ancestral lands.
.... we have little to no knowledge of their social, spiritual and cultural needs.
.... we have introduced them to the major killers, fat, sugar, alcohol and drugs.
.... we have all but destroyed their history and culture, instead re writing it to sooth our conscience.

yet still the majority pursue higher education, employment and other modern lifestyles. Yes there is a lot of bludgers and criminals, but that is changing, but it will only be slowed by those that constantly denigrate them, but then that is the aim, making them look bad makes us look better, well feel better anyway.

 

Please demonstrate my hypocrisy as applied to the different topics and subjects?

I'm not trying to have it my way all the time. You being an educated individual, I was attempting to demonstrate to you that there is no positive aspects in holding grudges.

I was also trying to demonstrate that throughout history many countries have been invaded and their populations slaughtered by the conquerors, and treated bad by the conquerors.

You just seem to have this unrealistic obsession by thinking that the Aboriginal people are the only people on the planet that have been hard done by, when their country has been conquered.

Then you try to be condescending by telling me I don't know anything about history.

I do know about history D.V, but unlike you, I'm not just obsessed and fanatical about "Aboriginal" history.

I like to compare ALL history from ALL civilisations, not just be fanatical and obsessed about one, and use that as my academic guide and scientific fact.

 

I understand this is a very emotional subject for you D.V, and with all due respect to your professionalism and individuality. I believe you are allowing your strong emotions of anger to cloud your judgment on this topic.

 

I will agree here, the policies were wrong, money was filtered out by others along the way, the problems here were more political. I am trying to show you and others that considering the past treatment, I think they have come a long way.

 

Of course those policies were bloody WRONG - they were an instant death trap for indigenous Australians. Remote areas and the only social activity available - ALCOHOL & DRUGS. The basic concept of the policy was spend some money, sent them out into the bush, and let them them die out by their our hand. This is what the bastards wanted all along for the Aboriginal people to destroy themselves by their own means, and it bloody nearly worked. Now they are trying to do the same bloody thing under a new mantra and scheme, and everyone is falling for the same snow-job again.

 

Why is that, this is a belief I have held since I was about 11, yes it is emotional, why does the country I love so much treat people so bad, not just the indigenous, but the aged and disabled as well. The way we look at refugees now, which is not how we looked at them in the past. It seems to me we only care for a narrow group (bring on Galatica). We are becoming a greedy uncaring country, two things I thought I would never see.

The point I m trying to make is that our attitudes haven't really changed, oh they have mellowed, but not changed. It didn't end in 1788, it started then, and in my opinion, is yet to end.

 

It probably never will really end D.V. But we have to learn to let go of holding grudges, as there is NO positive outcomes to holding onto them - only negative ones.

My uncle was held for 2/12 years in a Japanese prisoner of war camp, and when the camp was liberated, they discovered his malnourished corpse - he had starved to death. The point I was trying make; does this give me the right to hold a grudge against ALL Japanese today, for what a few Japanese did to my uncle back in 1944?

 

I have never had a problem with indigenous people keeping their culture and traditions, but they also have to be willing to abandon traditions that no loner sustain their people, or are having a detrimental effect on their people.

 

It would be a start to build a research colony on Mars and improve our skills in terraforming. Nevertheless it will be China ot maybe India which will save the planet as the Western world focus its money on feeding primitives.

Hunting Kangaroos is a brilliant idea to nuture the world population.

 

Oh...

... thought this was `bout when...

... dem lil' green men come sniffin' `round...

... fer some o' Granny's special herb brownies...

... never mind.

 

If only rectifying things was as simple as some simple minds think it is. Centuries of neglect, denial and rejection upon generations and generations of people has to have an ugly impact that is not solved easily. If only it was that simple.

 

Immature spiritual superstitions?

Cultural spiritual nonsense?

These two phrases really cut to the heart (lack of it!!) of the matter. Get off your high horse and RESPECT other cultures. OUR ways were forced and bludgeoned on the Indigenous. We imposed our ways brutally on them. And here you harp like an incredibly uneducated person - as though we would 'give in to them', that they would 'get away with it', 'that we would give them anything they want'. When we took everything from them. Their lives. Their land. Their children, mothers and fathers. Their language. Their ancestry.

We imposed and forced OUR WAYS on them, not the other way around.

The arrogance of belittling and discounting their spirituality as you do.... accounts for so much about what is wrong with this world. Better their spirituality than an inflated and arrogant negating 'spirit' that is unfortunately so prevalent in our world.

 

^^I would say this of you. Your strong emotions towards Aboriginals is evident in the way you bash them on these threads. Getting angry is a natural response to the negativity you constantly express towards Aboriginals. Check your own judgment on the matter. Me personally, I am tired of your nasty tirade against Aboriginals.

 

I do respect other cultures. Maybe you should read before making comments. Starting with my posting #65 would be a good start.

 

Is this a free online counselling service?

 

Every conquered civilisation throughout history was forced to face the same massive problems and issues that the Aboriginal people encountered.

How did they manage to survive, and keep "their" culture and traditions alive with NO help and assistance from their conquerors?

 

Just imagine what humanity could accomplish in 10 years, if we diverted that $1.75 trillion military world budget into space exploration and colonisation.
http://www.sipri.org/media/pressreleases/2014/Milex_April_2014

I would also like to know how many more $trillion of dollars and limited resources are going to be given to numerous countries, whereby the people in these countries still find themselves in the same circumstances and situations that they began decades ago. To me, that represents money and limited resources being wasted.