I posted about the power behind modern hi-vel 22lr's a couple times. My first "test" was a 2x6 plank which they blew straight threw. Next I took another 2X6 and screwed a 5/8's fence plank on the back side. The resulting sandwich was just a hair over 2" thick. Shot with my GSG 22 lr STG-42 (CCI velocitors)....again....clean through. Determined to stop these "mini-magnums" I screwed 2 - 2X4's together - over 3" thick. Guess what?.....They blew chunks of wood out the other side!! Now I don't think the bullets actually exited intact, I could see fragments still in the wood on the backside. I think the damage was a few fragments and the energy blasting out an exit. I would have bet anything that the backside of those two sandwiched 2x4's was going to show nothing. Now anything that can bore through 2 - 2X4's will put a serious hurt on anything human...bone, brains, whatever. Now, just for fun, I took the same 2x4's from about 5 yards and shot them with my preferred home defense - 00 Buck 12 ga. They more or less disintegrated.......
A coworker of mine was dove hunting a few months ago. After hunting, he was shooting his .22 pistol on the bank of a stock tank. He lost his footing and shot himself in the thigh. I don't know what kind of ammo, but it went completely through his thigh. It entered by his front pants pocket and exited about 4" above his knee from his hamstring. It missed his femur. I figure at least 8-10" of penetration. I doubt it was hollow point. I gained a new respect for the .22. He got pretty dizzy hopping 100 yds to his van. If the shot hit an organ, it would be much worse. It would take multiple shots or 1 very well placed shot to stop a threat quickly.
Or just use a 9mm or something greater. Penetratation =/= lethality. M855 ice picks through its targets, has greater than M193, yet the M193 is more lethal because it tumbles and fragments.
Interesting results, but still not sufficient for me to use a .22LR for self defense, primarily on the reliability issue.
As a kid I would shoot grasshoppers off my picket fence in the yard (yes with a green belt behind the fence) and at times would shoot them off a picket which was backed up by the 4x4. And the .22 (40 grain lead nose) was going all the way through! The .22 LR would not be my first choice for self defense but It's a far sight better than a club or a knife. And even a caliber that is too big to control.
My point precisely. Granted it is not as deadly as a 45 or 9mm, but they are NOT the glorified pellet guns some seem to thing they are. While I am away my wife (who is severely gun challenged) has my 22 marlin with a laser. I showed her to turn the laser on, flip the safety, and put the laser on the intruder and start pulling the trigger until all 16 shells are gone. Unless he is a linebacker wearing body armor he will leave and/or die. That is her only option as she cannot control anything with recoil, and it is a dam sight better that screaming....
You are right of course, my point is just that IF circumstances limit you or a loved one to a 22lr you are far from helpless. From a leathality standpoint, at home defense ranges, the 00 Buckshot is far and away about the most deadly round - IMHO
A .22LR is better than fists, however it irritates me when people pretend is it a suitable self-defensive cartridge. A .22LR is for rabbits and coyotes. All of the urban legends are bull(*)(*)(*)(*).
i think the best question is: which is more important for a self-defense round, penetration or stopping power? - - - Updated - - - lol.
There used to be an urban myth that a large majority of the murders in the us are from the 22lr cartridge. Some study in 1989 started it. But even though it is low on the list of evil black weapons, it is deadly. Iit does not have the knock down power of a 44 magnum, but one to a vital spot will drop you instantly. I sometimes carry a tiny 22 revolver when out walking the little dog. We have coyotes around, & that is for them. But i have shot 10s of thousands of 22lr over the years, hunting, plinking, etc, & if place well, it is deadly. it is not a toy. I'll probably carry a 9mm or better for self defense CC, but there is no reason to despise the venerable 22lr round.
some guy did a study and found the .22LR is pretty damn lethal and good at stopping badguys, based on FBI stats of murder victims.
Stopping power in a handgun is a myth. Handguns do not deposit much energy into the target, and most people shot with handguns live. Most people shot with long guns die. It is an energy issue. http://www.policemag.com/channel/we...opping-power-myths-legends-and-realities.aspx
The concept of stopping power and knockdown power are both myths, neither of which is based upon actual physics. Should someone fall over after being shot, but not die from their wounds, it is most likely because of the amount of pain they have suddenly found themselves subjected to.
More energy is more decisive, but with pistol ammo in particular, it's all about damage to the CNS. I've read a lot about this over the years. ER surgeons usually can't tell which pistol round was used, unless the bullet remains in the body. Bullet impacts are like snowflakes, in that no two are alike. Pay attention to the various reports you hear about shootings. When the victim is reported dead at the scene, it's usually because of damage to the CNS. You often hear that the victim died later at the hospital. This can be due to a lot of things, like organ failure, or uncontrollable bleeding. One thing that caught my attention about .22LR some time ago was that it's "common" for a victim to die of peritonitis, but that happens at least 2 hours later, because the victim didn't think that the wound was severe enough to seek medical attention. This might happen in the case of a home intruder that you shot, but didn't stop. Back to energy transfer: The best summary I've heard was a breakdown of which guns resulted in various survival rates. Handguns are lethal about 25% of the time. Rifles kill about 50% of the time, with one shot. Shotguns are almost 100% lethal. Then, I embarrass myself, because I really shouldn't think this way, but it comes down to making a mental note: If you're using a pistol, hit him 4 times. With a rifle, hit him twice. With a shotgun, go get towels and bedsheets, to contain the mess.
Watched a presentation by an ER doctor who said that 1 out of 6 people shot by a handgun die from bleeding out before the hospital can stabilize.
A simple reminder in physics: a .22 LR round has 10 times less power than a typical .40 cal S&W police round.
I don't follow, and it ain't simple physics. A .22 cal. 40 gr. bullet with a muzzle vel. of 1,280 fps has 145 ft./lbs. energy. Yer' basic .40 S&W cop round has around 450 ft./lbs. energy. That ain't 10X. Oh. Wait. I get it. You're using Obama math.
Typical .22 rounds fired from a handgun have 117 ft lbs. of muzzle energy. Typical .40 cal have 425 or 4 times as much. Hotter .40 rounds have up to 675 ft lbs or about 6 times. I was wrong to say 10 times as much when it should have been about 5 times as much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php To me, using a .22 for self defence is like bringing a midget to heavyweight boxing match.
Nonetheless, we've been over this a LOT. This has been a very contentious subject on every forum where I've seen it discussed. Handgun energy simply doesn't mean a whole lot, unless the bullet strikes a major bone structure, and has enough energy to do serious damage that incapacitates the bad guy. Otherwise, the difference between a dinky little .22 and a .40 S&W is the extent of tissue disruption, which results in the rate of bleeding. If you read a whole bunch of stories about people who got shot, you come to understand that the human body really detests being punctured by anything. If a .22 is all you got, you're way ahead of having nothing. I knew a guy who shot the guy who was attacking his mom. The attacker was hit in the chest with 3 shots from a Ruger 10/.22. He fell down dead. In the autopsy of M. Brown, it was found that although he had taken 7 hits from a .40 S&W, the one that killed him went through the top of his head, and into his brain. It wouldn't have mattered if that bullet was .40 cal. or .12 cal. Nor would it have mattered if it had 176,000 ft./lbs energy or 76.
A .22 LR weapon should only be used to defend against large predators, (man ususally), if: That's all you have. That's all the recoil you can handle Or if you only want to scare-off or wound someone. I'll rely on the wisdom of every single military of every single government on the planet over the last 100 years---and every single police agency on the face of the earth. None use a .22 handgun or rifle as a primary service weapon or duty gun. An Eskimo shot an killed a polar bear with a .22, and many people are killed with this round. The .22 has killing power, but it lacks stopping power. There isn't a whole great deal of differece between the major handgun rounds, 9mm, .40, .45, .357 and so on. The lowly .22 isn't even considered a realistic contender. The study below shows that: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm The take home message should be: if someone is coming to your home to kill you, most modern, centerfire handguns will do, but use a centerfire rifle if you want want's best.
I keep trying to let this rest, but you keep coming back, as if to "prove" something. You're digging a hole. Of course, no military would choose any rimfire as a proprietary battle gun, though the original .45/70 trap door was limited to rimfire pressures, due to the "balloon head" design of the cartridge. Military forces need more range and remaining power. Israel still uses a modified Ruger 10/.22 for specops. Where you say that a center fire rifle is the ultimate home defense weapon.... WRONG. It's the 12 ga. shotgun with buckshot no smaller than #4. No doubt, you'll be back with more OPINION.
I've purchaced a Remington police shotgun for my kid to use at his house for defence---even though my only shotgun is more for duck hunting. So shotguns are great. My point in all this is to inform anyone who might be mislead into thinking they will be as well armed with a .22 LR as they would be for a traditional 9mm or greater handgun. The ballistic tests show that they would not be. Unlike shotguns, rifles can effectively engange beyond 30 - 40 yards. I'd rather not wait until someone is almost inside my house before being able to stop them (in terms of some disaster scenario). My nightstand gun is an HK USP in .40 cal. The gun out in in car's trunk is a 9mm 92F Beretta. I do have 5 guns that shoot the .22 LR for training, plinking and defending against bunny rabbits and squirrels.
Yes, but they use it to shoot protest leaders in the leg. They use it as a non-lethal weapon and more of a psy-ops thing.
.22lr is better than nothing, but still the least effective of all the guns I own and the most difficult ammo to come by these days.
