BBC: "How many Russians are fighting in Ukraine?"

ThumbsUp · Apr 20, 2015

litwin said: ↑

stop lying and misleading the poor minds here, BBC and Royal United Services used only well - documented and many times checked information. here is the leading moscovite military expert A. Golts"(заместитель главного редактора «Ежедневного журнала» Александр Гольц .) he gives the same numbers
[video=youtube;0z1syWpgvio]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z1syWpgvio&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
so don´t put the blame on mirror and answer the questions
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Litwin come on, i m sure u are familiar with russian language, are you sure this expert is really russian? Colts sounds just same as Ivanov or Petrov. U speak russian but (thanks god) u are not russian.

Discussing how many russians in Ukraine, if there as many as 90000 it means NATO shud make something to improve their intelligence - coz so far none of them shared even 1 doc that proving it. And i m sure they wud if they cud.

litwin · Apr 20, 2015

ThumbsUp said: ↑

Litwin come on, i m sure u are familiar with russian language, are you sure this expert is really russian? Colts sounds just same as Ivanov or Petrov. U speak russian but (thanks god) u are not russian.

Discussing how many russians in Ukraine, if there as many as 90000 it means NATO shud make something to improve their intelligence - coz so far none of them shared even 1 doc that proving it. And i m sure they wud if they cud.
Click to expand...

where did you find 90000 number? 40 000-50 000 on the borders, 10 000-13 000 (12 000 usual number) inside Ukraine

litwin · Apr 21, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

Lying Litwin?

Facts tell a story and I did, after all, link to those facts.

What do you know about the BBC? Are you aware that the British security services have an officer on permanent secondment to that august body to stamp on stories not to the liking of the state?

Thought not.

And did you check out RUSI to see if the names I provided held the posts I said they did - and did you check out each of their biographies?

No, thought not.

So when it comes to bandying about the term "liar", you'd do well to look in your shaving mirror each morning and see how well that term sits with your reflection.

By the way, your chum, Alexsandr Golts coincidentally happens to be a visiting fellow at Stanford University's Centre for International Security and Cooperation (CISC), a leading US military and intelligence think tank. Odd that, don't you think?

Probably not.

However, you might be interested to know that amongst CISC's distinguished members are such luminaries as William J Perry, former US Secretary of Defence; Condoleeza Rice, former Bush Administration Secretary of State; Michael May, former director of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, an institute dedicated to US national security; Siegfried Hecker, director emeritus of Los Alamos National Laboratory. A co-director of CISC is Amy Zegart, a specialist on US security agencies who served on the Clinton Administration National Security Council and was a policy adviser to the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign. She has trained US Marines, and advised official on intelligence and homeland security.

If the company you keep is any measure of the person you are, then your Mr. Golts is very much in the American military and intelligence camp. Besides that, all the articles he writes, just happen to have an anti Putin spin.

Call me old fashioned but I think Mr. Golts to be somewhat tarnished so far as independence goes when it comes to speaking on these subjects.
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SU sounds like CIA according you, the fact that Alexsandr Golts worked for an official newspaper of Soviet and later Russian Ministry of Defence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnaya_Zvezda has not changed a thing in your conspiracy theory . but again all experts have very close data., i know that paid trolls work here is to make FUN out of this subject , submarine LOL, our tanks tanks in Ukraine LOL, our generals LOL, etc.

...
Like so much electronic chaff dropped out of the back of a Tupolev bomber to confuse an incoming missile, the idea that there are multiple interpretations of the truth has become the founding philosophy of state disinformation in Putins Russia, designed to confuse those who would seek out the truth with multiple expressions of distracting PR chaff. The tactic is to create as many competing narratives as possible. And, amid all the resultant hermeneutic chaos, to quietly slip away undetected....
One of the foremost ringmasters of this postmodern authoritarianism is Putin adviser and trendy former TV executive Vladislav Surkov; he is as comfortable talking about performance art and rap music as he is about contemporary politics. For him, all news is comment, all truth little more than opinion. There is the BBC view. The Fox News view. The Russia Today view. All are expressions of special interests, not so much attempts at the truth as individual perspectives and localised narratives.

Mr Surkov grasps that all this chimes closely with the idea, familiar in the west, that any and every perspective can be legitimised as a matter of individual opinion. On the basis of this lazy philosophy, the idea that one view is right and another wrong can be made to sound like some unwarranted imposition of authority. You can already hear the objection to the assertion of truth: Who is to say who is right?

What Russian state spin demonstrates is that, by dispensing with what we used to be comfortable calling the truth, we are left with nothing but sheer power. In other words, relativism leads inevitably into nihilism. What is truth? said Pontius Pilate, trying to befuddle the issues of innocence and guilt with high-sounding Putin-like misdirection. No news organisation should be sympathetic to this strategy. For while comment is free, the facts are sacred.

Amid the various narratives of the truth now being rehearsed by the Russian state, it is necessary to insist upon a reality; on Friday morning Mr Nemtsov was alive, but by the days end he was dead. Amid the mischievous misdirection of the Kremlins counter-measures, this is, quite simply, the truth.
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http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rdian-view-russian-propaganda-truth-out-there

one more expert the same numbers

[video=youtube;13HNc427Xlo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=13HNc427Xlo[/video]
from min 26.00

litwin · Apr 21, 2015

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...chief-says-Putins-troops-run-three-hours.html

[video=youtube;OSUeewx4qL8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=OSUeewx4qL8[/video]

MrFirst · Apr 21, 2015

Sustaining the operation in Ukraine and on its borders has, however, required the mobilisation of units across the breadth of Russia, according to a new assessment by Dr Igor Sutyagin, of the Royal United Services Institute.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523
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Igor Sutyagin - the former employee of Russian Institute for US and Canadian Studies, sentenced to 15 years in jail for spionage for USA. In 2010 as a part of spy trade between Russia and USA was changed for Russian spies and released to Great Britain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Sutyagin

Why all western experts on Russia are wether traitors or spies?

MrFirst · Apr 21, 2015

A statement by the chief of France’s military intelligence, General Christophe Gomart, was published on the National Assembly’s website.

“NATO announced that the Russians were about to invade Ukraine. But, according to French intelligence, there is nothing to corroborate this hypothesis – we determined that the Russians were deploying neither command posts nor logistical facilities, including field hospitals, needed for a military incursion,” General Gomart told a parliamentary hearing.

NATO’s top brass has been incanting mantras about a “Russian invasion” ever since the crisis in Ukraine began a year ago. NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, as well as his predecessor Anders Fogh Rasmussen, have lashed at Russia on numerous occasions, claiming that the Russian military is present on the ground in Ukraine, but failing to provide evidence supporting these claims.

“Our conclusion eventually proved correct because even if some Russian soldiers had indeed been seen on the Ukrainian side of the border, it was just a ploy, meant to bring pressure to bear on President Poroshenko, rather than an attempt to invade Ukraine,” General Gomart said.

http://rt.com/news/248877-france-ukraine-russian-military/
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/cr-cdef/14-15/c1415049.asp

Sly Lampost · Apr 21, 2015

litwin said: ↑

SU sounds like CIA according you, the fact that Alexsandr Golts worked for an official newspaper of Soviet and later Russian Ministry of Defence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnaya_Zvezda has not changed a thing in your conspiracy theory
Click to expand...

No conspiracy theory involved. I presented verifiable facts that were linked. Golts, clearly, is close to the US military and intelligence establishment via his fellowship of the Center for International Security and Cooperation.

Perhaps you will tell us what years Golts was on the editorial board of Krasneya Zvevda, rather than just copying information from a link I earlier provided to you? And then we can develop this aspect further.

And since you raised the subject, I wish to repeat that the earlier source you referenced, the Royal United Services Institute, does have a CIA connection to it via General David Petraeus, former Director of the CIA. See HERE. Petraeus is a Vice President of RUSI. See HERE.

litwin · Apr 21, 2015

Separatist fighter admits Russian tanks, troops 'decisive in eastern Ukraine battles'
Head of rebel special forces detachment says regular army units from Russia play key role in victories
Click to expand...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oops-decisive-in-eastern-Ukraine-battles.html

litwin · Apr 23, 2015

Perhaps you will tell us what years Golts was on the editorial board of Krasneya Zvevda
Click to expand...

what it will change ?

I wish to repeat that the earlier source you referenced, the Royal United Services Institute, does have a CIA connection to it via General David Petraeus, former Director of the CIA. See HERE. Petraeus is a Vice President of RUSI. See HERE.
Click to expand...

so it turn all experts into the spy?

why you do refuse to talk about the numbers ? its very simple just analyze Ukrainian army (which is very similar to Moscovite , in training, little worst equipped, but way better motivated) numbers

here is my favorite expert:
[video=youtube;Ayfjbb5aO8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=Ayfjbb5aO8c[/video]
[video=youtube;JgdOZX6Y_o8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgdOZX6Y_o8&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
https://www.facebook.com/alexey.arestovich

http://ukr-online.com/en/health/143...astupnoyi-eskalacyi-sche-blsh-seryoznoyi.html

He wrote this on his page in Facebook.

"Everyone is asking for Minsk-2.

Answer:

1. The collective strategy of the West in relation to the Ukrainian crisis comes from three boundary conditions:

- to prevent the collapse of the Federation, they don't want to disentangle promising consequences;

- to prevent the practice of revising the post-war borders in Europe connivance in this respect produces effects that are not less interesting;

- avoid open war with Russia.

Thus, when the policy carried out by Russia, space collective West is very narrow, it is necessary to solve three almost mutually exclusive tasks:

- to force Russia to restore the status of the occupied territories, in other words, to return and apologize;

to prevent the sharp aggravation of the political situation in Russia;

- to prevent large-scale continental war.

As you can see: the space of solutions is very narrow.

Hence, the chosen strategy:

- sanctions and negotiations.

The problem is that they seriously expect that under the pressure of sanctions and consolidated the position of the West, the Kremlin would compromise and say "sorry, got excited, take the Crimea ago."

All they can is to demonstrate to the Kremlin and other possible candidates that attempt to destroy the border, even successful and fixed, will be expensive.

This is a weak position and weak strategy, because it is reactive and does not contain a positively formulated active target. For example, it does not consider the return of the Crimea in the Ukraine.

In contrast, the Russian strategy expansive, has pronounced a particular purpose.

It is to:

- fix the status of Crimea, as a subject of the Russian Federation,

- translate Ukraine in status dependent on the Russian state cannot pursue an independent policy, and in any case did not become integrated part of the West, for it will mean for Russia's historical catastrophe.

It is obvious that the economic levers this task, the Kremlin cannot solve, because the economic race to the West, Russia loses unambiguously.

So, were selected military means.

The key to the situation lies not in Brussels and not in the Kremlin, and in Kiev.

The problem is that Kiev is also clearly outlined its strategy and goals:

- the EU and NATO,

and Ukraine's integration into the EU and NATO is not the purpose of neither the EU nor NATO.

Especially now the price of a sharp aggravation of relations with Russia.

Thus, Ukraine is torn in the community that it is not very awaits.

Right about this we do not say, for it would be a violation of the basic values of these organizations, polegada in freedom of choice and their openness to new members.

Thus, Russia claims the resource "Ukraine", Ukraine claims to be the resource of the EU, and the EU does not claim anything other than the basic principles of development.

In the interest of Europe is a wealthy, westernized Ukraine. But to actively fight for its integration, especially with Russia, the EU is not going to.

The Kremlin is playing on the absence of a common position of the EU towards Ukraine is accepted in the community.

There is a recipe, according to which Ukraine can greatly contribute to the development of this position: wide, for European reform.

Moreover, Europeanization of Ukraine, even without joining the EU, has launched the mechanism of a historical transformation of Russia, the Kremlin regime, and Russia would not survive the European presence on the site of a former colony: first began this historical change anthropopithecus, simply put, the Russian people in the face of progressive public, would go here would begin to gradually develop the business and capital, then part of the political authority for the CIS, and then began to close around Kyiv meta-Gestalt Kievan Rus.

This would mean meta-historical collapse of Russia, for all its sacred myth built on Ukrainian soil and artificial prestondale from this Gestalt.

This need stems that:

historical stake in this conflict for Russia is extremely high.

It comes from the very existence of Russia in the form in which it was once created and built.

Hence the high support for the actions of Putin to the Russian people, and Kisilev - only the design of this collective meta-historical psychosis.

historical stake in this conflict is extremely high and for Ukraine it comes to summing up for the thousand years of its results and the determination of its fate for the next thousand.

And only for the EU and the USA, we are talking about maintaining a system of rules, which they built after WWII and the collapse of the USSR.

The collective West does not see the height of a historic choice in this conflict, not so much because of fears tectonic changes all European and world history, but because he does not believe that Ukraine can become a historical subject itself to determine its own destiny.

Unfortunately, Ukraine (yet) revealing that in their unbelief West of rights.

The assets we have two Maidan and the heroic defense of the country against Russian aggression, passive - no reforms, real, teleology activity and severity of almost four hundred years of colonial rule from Moscow.

This is the background against which passed Minsk negotiations.

It is clear that strategically they have nothing to give.

The stakes are such that the struggle will continue, and not to life, but literally to death - historic or historic Ukraine.

No compromise, which thirsted would be satisfied with the West or old, the Ukrainian political class, is impossible in this situation fundamentally.

Last war, which would have been a global selection of such order, was a second world.

This means that:

no end to the conflict will not be;

the conflict will go to the full resolution, i.e., the loss of historical subjectivity of one of the parties;

- having strong political or even historical purposes, the conflict will be very fierce.

This war for at least ten years in one form or another.

During her may change the position of the West, but not the position of Ukraine or Russia.

Actually, this round Minsk talks happened because the West was ready to change its position:

to move from the level of sanctions (economic costs) to the stage of increasing military costs for Russia.

Putin was an urgent need to stop it.

This conflict is already clearly delineated frequency:

- accumulation of Russia's military potential for the next occurrence (2-4 months);

- offensive (14-20 days);

- attempt to fix the offensive by political means.

Unlike Minsk-1, Putin went to Minsk-2, not much more advantageous position. More than losing.

Firstly, the Ukrainian army has strengthened its military and reflected current, well-prepared and organized and very intense and large-scale offensive. Putin was knocked out of the hands of a very serious advantage is the possible serious military defeat of Ukraine, which, undoubtedly, would have strengthened his bargaining position, and weakened our.

Instead, he received a failed attack, the failure of their plans and a very serious loss of Russian troops.

Oops.

Secondly, Putin came close to a fourth round of sanctions, which would encourage Russia to the troubles in the foreseeable calendar period for six months to a year.

Third, Putin de facto recognized itself a party to the conflict.

This was most clearly evident when he tried political means to provide the results of a failed military offensive, speaking about "Debaltseve boiler" and the need "...to understand it" - intrigue especially stitched white thick thread that no boiler is not in sight.

Thus, even more clearly showed the relationship of the military component of the conflict and the political:

- success on the battlefield directly affect our political success and failure of the plans of the enemy.

In this sense, political Minsk-2, it's the same thing that Debaltsevo in the military is good for us defensive diplomatic operation.

For the first time, the Ukrainian side did not go on humiliating compromise and concessions. And the transition of our troops on the offensive in sector M the more strengthened our position and, finally (!) outlined our strategy as Pro-active.

This, in particular, means that the leadership of the state, beginning to understand the importance of military success to ensure their political position.

And it is very good.

A large positive signal.

This phase is behind us. In the asset Putin - only the postponement of the fourth stage of sanctions and supplies Ukraine with Western weapons.

Forecast:

- the agreement will not be executed or will be executed formally;

- in the period up to 2-3 months should be preparing for the next escalation is even more serious;

- this time, Putin will try to use to organize the internal political crisis in Ukraine, including attempts inspiration of the power of the performances in Kiev.

In General, conflict is not only attenuated, but goes to a new level: for Putin cannot repeat the previous strategy of "accumulation - strike:

- Ukraine has increased its efficiency, and direct military attack again will fail or will cost an invalid price;

- at the next turn, practically guaranteed delivery Western weapons and further economic sanctions.

This means that the Kremlin in the near future to the maximum to meet destabilize the internal situation in Ukraine.

This is his last chance.

In General:

- this round we won with an advantage.

Recipe:

- speedy and effective reform of the state and the national security system;

- awareness of the true meta-historical content of this conflict and the stakes in this game;

- creation of a Pro-active strategy of Ukraine gained subjectivity and their own historical destiny.

And finally, there is in all this one is very promising for us:

Russia seeks to slow down the story, and we continue.

"You see these mountains? There will be hail the great and glorious!.." sums up Arestovich.
Click to expand...

Sly Lampost · Apr 24, 2015

litwin said: ↑

what it will change ?
Click to expand...

Try it and see...

Sly Lampost · Apr 24, 2015

litwin said: ↑

why you do refuse to talk about the numbers ? its very simple just analyze Ukrainian army (which is very similar to Moscovite , in training, little worst equipped, but way better motivated) numbers
Click to expand...

You're missing the point. The problem is that you're always happy to post any source or story that adheres to your prejudiced world view, including suspect ones.

It's a matter of not trusting the "experts" you reference as they form part of the Anglo-American propaganda machine. How can anyone have faith in their figures when they themselves are prejudiced?

It's not as if I'm saying that Russia had no forces in the Ukraine, as I'm certain they did. But this is besides the point. Present data from an independent and reliable source and we can discuss further. That's all I ask.

olegp · Apr 24, 2015

litwin said: ↑

what it will change ?

so it turn all experts into the spy?

why you do refuse to talk about the numbers ? its very simple just analyze Ukrainian army (which is very similar to Moscovite , in training, little worst equipped, but way better motivated) numbers
Click to expand...

no, it would be better motivated if it fights for Poltava or Kiev.
Rebells are better motivated because they fight for their land

litwin · Apr 24, 2015

better motivated if it fights for Poltava or Kiev
Click to expand...

and get all equipment and military/civilian supples from ebay? only an idiot or an ufo-putlerists can such urinal Goebbels - Kiselev´s lies

- - - Updated - - -

Sly Lampost said: ↑

Present data from an independent and reliable source and we can discuss further. That's all I ask.
Click to expand...

from Jesus? i gave your the leading moscovite expert numbers, BBC, etc... the moscovite solders mother is enough good for you as a source?

Jeannette · Apr 24, 2015

litwin said: ↑

what it will change ?

so it turn all experts into the spy?

why you do refuse to talk about the numbers ? its very simple just analyze Ukrainian army (which is very similar to Moscovite , in training, little worst equipped, but way better motivated) numbers
Click to expand...

Litwin, you better change 'experts', unless brainwashing becomes you too.

Oh and while you're at it, tell him the EU is just a mirage. The doors are shut on Ukraine.

Jeannette · Apr 24, 2015

MrFirst said: ↑

A statement by the chief of Frances military intelligence, General Christophe Gomart, was published on the National Assemblys website.

NATO announced that the Russians were about to invade Ukraine. But, according to French intelligence, there is nothing to corroborate this hypothesis we determined that the Russians were deploying neither command posts nor logistical facilities, including field hospitals, needed for a military incursion, General Gomart told a parliamentary hearing.

NATOs top brass has been incanting mantras about a Russian invasion ever since the crisis in Ukraine began a year ago. NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, as well as his predecessor Anders Fogh Rasmussen, have lashed at Russia on numerous occasions, claiming that the Russian military is present on the ground in Ukraine, but failing to provide evidence supporting these claims.

Our conclusion eventually proved correct because even if some Russian soldiers had indeed been seen on the Ukrainian side of the border, it was just a ploy, meant to bring pressure to bear on President Poroshenko, rather than an attempt to invade Ukraine, General Gomart said.

http://rt.com/news/248877-france-ukraine-russian-military/
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/cr-cdef/14-15/c1415049.asp
Click to expand...

According to the German Spiegel, General Breedlove is hallucinating and seeing Russian armies invading Ukraine when neither the German Intelligence agents see them, nor the American ones. Actually they were worried enough about it, that they reported his 'hallucinating' condition to the head of Nato. Unfortunately, it seems his girl friend Nuland suffers from the same virus, and even presented it to the foreign relations committee...and not one of them questioned her.

Why is our Foreign Relations Committee looking more and more like this?

Jeannette · Apr 24, 2015

litwin said: ↑

and get all equipment and military/civilian supples from ebay? only an idiot or an ufo-putlerists can such urinal Goebbels - Kiselev´s lies

- - - Updated - - -

from Jesus? i gave your the leading moscovite expert numbers, BBC, etc... the moscovite solders mother is enough good for you as a source?
Click to expand...

What expert? There is not one thing that your so called 'brainwashing' expert said that wasn't an out and out lie. Now how about a reality check from some American experts on what's going on. Here's something from Pres. Reagan's former economic advisor; Dr. Paul Craig Roberts. He says that Washington is getting worried because people can see through the lies, so now they want to combat the truth in RT by calling them terrorists.

This is basically a threat. Washington is telling RT that if you don't start lying and saying what Washington wants you to say, we will shut you down. It's the Soviet Union all over again.

"...Washingtons problem is that whereas Washington controls the print and TV media in the US and its vassal states in Europe, Canada, Australia, Ukraine, and Japan, Washington does not control Internet sites, such as this one, or media, such as RT, of non-vassal states.

Consequently, Washingtons lies are subject to challenge, and as people lose confidence in Western print and TV media because of the propaganda content, Washingtons agendas, which depend on lies, are experiencing rougher sledding.

Truth is bubbling up through Washingtons propaganda. Confronted with the possibility of a loss of control over every explanation, Hillary Clinton, Ed Royce, and the rest are suddenly complaining that Washington is losing the information war. Huge sums of taxpayers hard earned money will now be used to combat the truth with lies.

What to do? How to suppress truth with lies in order to remain in control? The answer says Andrew Lack, Royce, et alia, is to redefine a truth-teller as a terrorist. Thus, the comparison of RT and dissident Internet bloggers to the Islamist State and the designated terror group, Boko Haram..."

olegp · Apr 24, 2015

litwin said: ↑

and get all equipment ?
Click to expand...

why do you support Lenin - Stalin's borders of Ukraine? are you a fan of Lenin and Stalin?

Sly Lampost · Apr 25, 2015

litwin said: ↑

and get all equipment and military/civilian supples from ebay? only an idiot or an ufo-putlerists can such urinal Goebbels - Kiselev´s lies

- - - Updated - - -

from Jesus? i gave your the leading moscovite expert numbers, BBC, etc... the moscovite solders mother is enough good for you as a source?
Click to expand...

But you're still ignoring the question about your Russian expert - who in any event, I've already shown to be part of a US military and political think tank. Hardly a shining example of independence.

Hairball · Apr 25, 2015

How many Russians are fighting in Ukraine?

I'll give you an answer as soon as I find out how many Russians are in Ukraine.

litwin · Apr 25, 2015

I'll give you an answer as soon as I find out how many Russians are in Ukraine.
Click to expand...

very small %

litwin · Apr 25, 2015

Sly Lampost said: ↑

But you're still ignoring the question about your Russian expert - who in any event, I've already shown to be part of a US military and political think tank. Hardly a shining example of independence.
Click to expand...

ok, his red star´s years : 1980 - 1996 so whats now ?https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гольц,_Александр_Матвеевич

litwin · Apr 25, 2015

olegp said: ↑

why do you support Lenin - Stalin's borders of Ukraine?
Click to expand...

i do support international law and the official borders, but you support the dwarf Hitler´s actions
hello from "your" city )))
[video=youtube;KXXJajxJsHQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=KXXJajxJsHQ[/video]

olegp · Apr 26, 2015

litwin said: ↑

i do support international law and the official borders, but you support the dwarf Hitler´s actions
hello from "your" city )))
[video=youtube;KXXJajxJsHQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=KXXJajxJsHQ[/video]
Click to expand...

so you don.t support fight Chechnya for independence,do you?

litwin · Apr 26, 2015

olegp said: ↑

so you don.t support fight Chechnya for independence,do you?
Click to expand...

i support no side in this conflict. so whats about Kharkov guys?

olegp · Apr 26, 2015

litwin said: ↑

i support no side in this conflict. so whats about Kharkov guys?
Click to expand...

exactlier- guys in Kharkov because most of ultras aren't kharkovities they are students of Kharkov Universities and colleges from other cities

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