For a change, how about an actual and honest discussion of Noah's Ark-

LOLOL. I understand perfectly.. You can read and you are curious. That's why humankind has survived for 100,000 years.

 

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.626855

Gorn, this is a good read. Hope you enjoy it.

Flood myth or biblical fact: Should believers swallow the Noah story?

 

That unique and fatal (intellectually) combination of egomania...and religious self-righteousness. Ironically, his kind of attitude turns more people AWAY from Christianity than draws them to it.

But of course, he doesn't care. He's not about evangelism...he's about being smug and "superior" on the Internet.

 

And failing miserably.

 

It's never been said all the animals were full-grown

As for denying of a flood happening:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Greek This is really the only one needed to verify my point.It has references as well
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-last-meal.html
http://www.iafi.org/floods.html

So yes,a flood did happen.

 

The moment it starts making claims that would reasonably leave verifiable evidence, such as a global flood, it is leaving itself open to scientific criticism.

It isn't conjecture. It is based on years of research. I started off trying to defend YEC and the global flood, picked up a few books from creationists claiming geological evidence of the flood, and found nothing but easily discoverable lies and horrendous logic.

1) A global flood would have left global geological evidence -- not conjecture, just an unavoidable fact.
2) There is no such evidence in fact, the geological evidence refutes it -- not conjecture, just an unavoidable fact.

Which of these do you think is flawed? Can you explain why we never find bronze and iron tools, which the bible says humans had already invented, in the lower layers? How are ferns (which float) in the lower layers while grasses (which sink) in the upper layers? Why do we always find flying reptiles below modern birds? Stone tools are made of, um, stone, so why didn't they sink to the bottom layers?

Sediment left in a single, global flood would have left thick bands, ordered by their sediment size (clay on the bottom, then silt, then sand). We should literally be able to find these layers anywhere we dig. Why aren't they there?

Already done. I'll post a lot more in a later post, but it will break the character limit if I do it here.

Since it proposed fact that we can test.

History and science are not mutually exclusive. Archaeology deals with history. Geology deals with history. When you make statements that can be tested, like making the claim that there was a global flood, you are presenting a testable hypothesis.

Then show where I have strayed from the biblical narration. The biblical narration says there was a global flood. The biblical narration is wrong, and scientifically, verifiably so.

Stay away from the personal attacks. They are against forum rules. If you want to talk about this, then start another thread for it. All I'm asking you to do is stay on topic. We are talking about the flood. I have no interest in discussing anything else here.

I live in a world where geology is a thing. And I'll ask again to stay on topic instead of flinging personal insults.

Where did I say the flood was caused by rain? The rain drop impacts I was talking about are rain drop impacts that can be found preserved in sedimentary layers. I'm talking about normal, everyday rain, which is what we find in these layers, not the rains of the flood. The whole point is that these impacts are incompatible with layers left by a flood. The same goes for the footprints and animal tunnels. Unless the flood deposited its layers, the flood waters receded, animals walked across it and left prints, the sediment hardened and then the flood waters came back again to bury everything, these sedimentary layers were not left by the flood.

Also, the Bible actually says that the flood was formed by both rain and the opening of the vaults of the deep.

And such an event would have left geological evidence. There is none. Take a jar of water with some sediment in it. Hell, throw whatever you want in the jar. Throw arrowheads in there, maybe some grass, etc. Now let it settle. The sediment will form layers. The layers of sediment will be ordered according to the size of their grains. Now, if there were a global flood, it would have kicked up a lot of sediment, to put it mildly. That sediment would have settled. It would have settled in an order. Why don't we find that order everywhere we dig, like we should?

Tsunamis don't vaporize everything the touch. Things are left, they just aren't left where they were. They are swept into the ocean and buried. Tsunamis don't vaporize sediment. They move sediment. If everything on earth was covered by water, then the sediments in that water would have settled.

Early geologists like Hutton specifically set out to prove the Bible's narrative. They couldn't do it. They couldn't match what they saw in geology with the flood story. They ended up having to guess that God had actually sent several floods, but only told us about one.

I'm not looking for "signs of heavy rain long ago". I'm not looking for evidence of rain at all. I'm looking for evidence of a flood. When you put sediment and other objects in water, they settle in a pattern. We should see that pattern everywhere we dig. We don't.

Please follow the rule of the forum. No personal attacks. And we aren't "clowns" when you present our views accurately.

Name one thing I've misunderstood about the Bible. Once again, I am not looking for evidence of rain. I'm looking for evidence of a flood.

Bible-believers are stuck trying to explain how a global flood could happen without leaving any evidence behind.

 

Good post..

The "flood" was local.. in the Euphrates river Basin.. In fact, the Euphrates was sometimes a violent river when snow melt from the mountains combined with heavy rains.. That's how the delta south of Basra was formed... And, there is a measurable flood footprint.. It was 150 miles wide and 350 long towards the Persian Gulf.

You are also correct... That all the early archeologists set out to PROVE that Noah's Flood and the Exodus were historical accounts instead of teaching narratives.

 

As far as this topic goes, this is a case of you against the biblical narration.

The biblical narration affirms that a deluge happened, the cause was hot water pressure breaking the land in order to be released. The hot water/vapors transformed into rain by condensation means for days. The rupture of land caused the correspondent earthquakes and tidal waves, and for this reason the Hebrew word "Mabul" (commonly translated in English as "deluge") is used solely for describing this kind of unique event.

The data given by the biblical narration is of thousands of years.

On the other hand, you want to contradict the bible saying that such an event of a sole continent (Pangaea) being divided did occur 200 million years ago.

Then, I asked you, what kind of measure mean you have used to determine such amount of 200 million years of age. Plus, if that measure method has been scientifically verified using a different method of measure for the same purpose.

And what I have received as an answer from you?

The following:

Seriously buddy you either have reading difficulties, have a terrible memory or you're delusional. You're the one who keeps making references to Pangaea over and over again.

Now who's being infantile?

Lol. You have no scientific evidence to contradict the biblical narration.

It is clear that your assumptions can't be scientifically proved as valid.

On the other hand, The biblical narration is describing this event in an ordered, concise, and scientifically valid path. You have all the elements and sequence of events which can pass any requirement demanded by the scientific method.

The biblical narration is historical.

By doing simple mathematics you can obtain the data when the events happened. The Bible is giving you even the month and day, in other words, the writer wants to inform you at his best when such an enormous event happened.

He doesn't need to use unverified methods of measure, he just recorded the event and passed to new generations in oral/written means.

For you, it appears that those historical records are legends. However, there are "legends" of sea monsters with horns on their heads.

And, when the carcass of a strange animal with characteristics of being a sea monster with horns appears on the shore of Spain, people just make all kind of comments, from mutant animal, a deformed known species, and so forth.

However, this "monster with horns" is no more a "legend from the past" because today we have witness a sample of these kind of creature. Regardless if this animal is a mutant from a known species, the same physical appearance is what it was described as its best by former fishermen, and sea men in general. And even drawings were made by lots representing such an physical appearance.

http://gawker.com/what-the-hell-is-this-horned-sea-monster-that-washed-as-1177984154



There is no reason why the biblical narrator was in the mode to lie and tell stories with such a precise scientific model of a catastrophe happening in such an order. To do so, the individual must have been a super genius who knew the power of steam, and by giving data in ,months and days, oh come on, you are saying that men in the past were way more intelligent than current humans.

Don't do the ridiculous anymore, because by rejecting a true part of human history in this world, you are opening the doors of fantasy, and you will end claiming that your grand grand father was a monkey.

And you will insist with your chimpanzee ancestry until everybody will believe you... and they will start feeding you with bananas.

 

Even before reading your post, I looked at the picture and said to myself, "Oh, hey, I wonder why cameron is posting a picture of an oarfish." The first commenter on the link you gave had the same guess.

 

This post is totally irrelevant irrespective of its content when you continually reference Pangaea in relation to the flood of the Bible. Do you understand?

Humans did not evolve from chimpanzees. If humans evolved from chimpanzees there wouldn't be any chimpanzees.

 

Oarfish can grow to 50 feet long..

 

The Noah's Ark Story is just that.... A NICE STORY....and perhaps it has a basis in reality when in 5600 BC the Med Sea which existed at a higher elevaton that the Balck Sea Basin which at that time was FRESH WATER....well the land mass that seperated the Med from the Black sea COLLAPSED and now this area is called the Turkis Straits!

The Higher Elevation Med poured into the Glacier Depression and created FRESH WATER BLACK SEA and we have all sorts of Fossils of fresh water fish that were killed by the salt water influx.

For people living in and around this area it would have seemed like the world had flooded but that is simply not possible.

If all Polar and Greenaland Sea Ice Melted it would only raise sea levels a few hundred feet certainly not the 5.5 MILES of SeaLevel Increase necessary to cover all land masses.

AboveAlpha

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how long they were on the ark for. I just posted what a pastor of mine told me. This was over 15 years ago. He is no longer alive for me to ask. I never said I agreed with it or not.

 

OK,, fair enough.

 

There was a flood.. It just wasn't global

Sumer (sometimes called Sumeria), is the site of the earliest known civilization, located in the southernmost part of Mesopotamia between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers, in the area that later became Babylonia and is now southern Iraq from around Baghdad to the Persian Gulf.

By the 3rd millennium BC, Sumer was the site of at least twelve separate city states: Kish, Erech, Ur,Sippar, Akshak, Larak, Nippur, Adab, Umma, Lagash, Bad-tibira, and Larsa.

Each of these states comprised a walled city and its surrounding villages and land, and each worshiped its own deity, whose temple was the central structure of the city. Political power originally belonged to the citizens, but, as rivalry between the various city-states increased, each adopted the institution of kingship.

The Sumerian King List, records that eight kings reigned before a great flood. After the Flood, various city-states and their dynasties of kings temporarily gained power over the others.

Sumer’s mythical past

The Sumerian King List begins with the very origin of kingship, which is seen as a divine institution: “the kingship had descended from heaven”. The rulers in the earliest dynasties are represented as reigning fantastically long periods:


After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years. Alaljar ruled for 36000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years.

Some of the rulers mentioned in the early list, such as Etana, Lugal-banda and Gilgamesh, are mythical or legendary figures whose heroic feats are subjects of a series of Sumerian and Babylonian narrative compositions.


Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myth...er-more-century-research-001287#ixzz3f1VWe6z3
Follow us: @ancientorigins on Twitter | ancientoriginsweb on Facebook

- - - Updated - - -

40 days or a year.. The contradiction is because two different flood myths were cobbled together during the time of King Omri when he was trying to reunite Judea and Israel.

 

It doesn't say they were babies either. Not that it matter. Eight people feeding two of every animal on earth, whether it be an infant, juvenile, or full grown is not possible. Actually, fitting two of every animal of a craft 450ft long is not possible.

Let's not pretend that is one of those possible things that were should consider as even a remote possibility.

So a:
Talk Origins link discussing the observance of localized floods
An ancient man who froze to death
Localized ice age floods

Is proof that a world wide flood happened, even though there is absolutely no evidence to suggest there was a global flood?

Why do these discussions boil down to this bull(*)(*)(*)(*) and nonsense?

 

I actually never considered the "time and effort" angle, until recently....IOW, how did 8 people care for and feed and water and CLEAN UP after 1000s of animals EVERY DAY, for a minimum of 3 months to a year.

Obviously none of the Literalists/Creationists considered it....nor want to consider it now.

Their NEW idea is to "reduce the number of animals needed" .....that there were only "a hundred or so" species onboard.....and that AFTER they were released by Noah when the waters receded, that those species EVOLVED into the various species we see today.

Ironically, people who have vehemently denied evolution for years....now need some form of "rapid evolution" to make their silly "boat and flood" myth "work."

 

More like billions of animals. So we have the literalist argument value of Stupid^Complete Absence Of Critical Thinking Abilities= Pro Flood Arguments.

Which is amusing. They take a scientific fact they deny any other time, and create a silly, nonsensical, and completely unverifiable version of evolution that is really not... um.... possible.

Leaving us with a literalist argument of:
Entirely Asinine[Stupid^Complete Absence Of Critical Thinking Abilities(Total Lack of Scientific Understanding)]/The Time Spent Formulating Bull(*)(*)(*)(*) Argument+Claims of Persecution from Peer Reviewed Study= Pro Flood Arguments

 

But see, that's where they DENY the numbers. They claim that there were "only a few hundred of each species" onboard the Ark....but when Noah released them off onto the mountains of Ararat.....they quickly dispersed to various continents....then EVOLVED into millions and millions of different species.

All in a matter of a few centuries....tops. Given fossil evidence shows multitudes of various species existing in places like North, South America and Australia thousands of years ago. (Naturally they don't believe in the age of fossils, of course).

Curious if they think the rat evolved into the capybara....or vice-versa?

 

Basic Reality.

Even if Noah had C-5 Galaxy Cargo Aircraft flying all around the globe picking up a male and female or one asexual Plant or whaever of each species....even if Noah had 1 Million People and 1000 C-5M's traveling at about 500 mph......IT WOULD TAKE 2000 YEARS!!!

Do some of you folk's ahve any idea how many species of LIFE exist on Earth????

In order for their to be a Global Flood covering all Land Masses the SeaLevel would have to increase by approx. 5.5 Miles Higher!!!

The added mass to the Earth would result in....

#1. An increase of total Earth Mass enough to allow the Earth to be thrown out of SOLAR ORBIT where the planet would freeze in the cold depths in interstellar space.

#2. Cause the death of every living thing do to the increase of air pressure which would make breathing air like breathing SOUP or perhaps the complete LOSS OF THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE if the Earth's diameter expansion caused to great a thinning of the atmosphere.

#3. The added Mass would cause the Moon to impact with the Planet killing all life.

#4. There does not exist enough water on Earth for this to happen and even if all water ice melted on the Poles and on Greenland we are looking at a total increase of sea level of about 168 feet...no where near 5.5 miles.

#5. Increase in Earth's mass would most likely cause a flipping of the Earth's Magnetic Fields and Poles slippage to almost 90 degrees.

ANYWAY ONE LOOKS AT IT IF THIS HAPPENED IT WOULD END LIFE ON EARTH!!!

AboveAlpha

 

Another thing that gets overlooked. Basic atmospheric physics.

Say you create trillions of gallons of water to cover the Earth to the very highest peaks....that's Everest at about 29,000 feet.

But gravity also increases from the weight of the water and thus the Earth's atmosphere thus doesn't "move up with water"....but remains concetrated at the ambient level that gravity retains most of the atmospheric pressure.

Simple physics...the atmospheric pressure would increase....tremendously. At sea level, during the Flood, it would have to be atleast 2 or 3 atmospheres of pressure minimum.

At the least, that means nitrogen hyper-infusion and Noah and his family and nearly every land animal would DIE of "the bends".

But if the Ark Believers say "God prevented the atmosphere from getting thick".....fine. It means that at 29,000 feet above pre-Flood sea level.....Noah and his family and nearly every land animal DIES due to oxygen deprivation from being up at the level a Boeing 777 airliner flies at.

Then what do they do? "God made the Earth's gravity less so the atmosphere could rise....then fixed it as the flood waters receded....and.....uh.....created new atmosphere to replace the air lost due to diffusion out into space due to low gravity".....

and their excuses pile up and up and up....until THEY are stratospheric in height.

 

So how is the discovery of Otzi the Iceman in permafrost (at about 4000 metres altitude) proof the flood of the Bible is true? Show me some scientific evidence.

 

Take your brain out see Gawd used his magical powers to stuff all the animals in there, keep everyone alive and repopulate the planet after because he can stop bring common sense and science into this. Praise be to Gawd!

Seriously the religious people here won't accept perfectly rational explanations as to why the Noah account is wrong so stop bothering since my rather tongue in cheek response is how they really think, they don't, its faith and that doesn't demand reason but a lack of it.

 

That's why I posted breathing AIR would be like BREATHING SOUP!!!

But there is another possibility I overlooked as I have posted about this many times.

The incease of 5.5 Miles in Radius of the Earth might have the effect if it happened too quickly of causing a complete loss of Atmosphere.

If it happened too fast....well.....what happens when you have FOG.....and then the SUN COMES OUT and the FOG DISAPATES??

We are talking about increasing the Ocean Sea Level by 5.5 Miles everywhere on Earth which means in some places the water depth will increase by 5.5 miles if we have land at sea level....in some places like over the Marianas Trench which is 7 MILES DEEP....now we are talking 12.5 Miles in depth of ocean water.

Since 70.8% of the Earth's surface is covered by water; 29.2 % is covered by land.....a rapid increase in Earth's Radius being created by the addition from some SUPERNATURAL SOURCE would raise HAVOC WITH EARTH'S PROTECTIVE ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELD......add to this the increase in Gravity and a surface completely covered in water......WE KNOW NOTHING COULD SURVIVE.....but the Atmosphere could either become thick as SOUP....or we could lose it all together!!

ONE THING THAT IS FOR CERTAIN......this NEVER HAPPENED!!!

AboveAlpha

 

Interesting how creationists move the goal posts over and over once their ideas have been debunked. Is it a Christian thing that they just can't admit defeat?