Florida nightclub shooting: 50 killed and 53 injured in 'act of terror'

Do you have any concrete proof that what has been reported (prior to the government getting its hands on it) is false? Remember, the further from the actual event we get the more it gets spun into an Obama meme.

 

Jewish Torah and Cristian Bible also say you should kill homosexuals, but people of those beliefs don't do it.

 

THE OLD TESTAMENT said kill homosexuals and adulterers. The Christian bible includes the new testament.

Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”
6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
11 “No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way."

Couldn't be stated much more plainly.

 

But unfortunately Muslims do. Homosexuality is a crime under Sharia punishable by death in many Islamic countries including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, UAE, Sudan, Syria, Libya and parts of Iraq now controlled by ISIS. This poses a real dilemma for Obama liberals, because its pits two of their "pander groups" against each other, Muslims and Gays. In truth no Gay person should ever have anything other than great suspicion for any Muslim.
The Orlando shooter was a Muslim extremist, and therefor he chose gays to target. This was primarily an act of Islamic terror -- but gays were targeted because of who they are.

 

[video=youtube;wiLk-V9DFpc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiLk-V9DFpc[/video]

 

Every single thing that ever happens ever is a conspiracy, ain't it?

 

His statement to the 911 operator that he supports ISIS, isn't innuendo.

 

Well that is not entirely true. The American Christian far right along with the neo cons have been working to get the death sentence for homosexuality in Africa and probably eventually bring it back through Christianity to the West.

Anyway now it looks like this guy himself was gay the situation as to why he killed people is somewhat different.

 

As I said earlier.

So it is still about radical Islam which far too many people keep trying to deflect away from.

 

Why focus on just Muslims. What about radical Hindus killing Muslims, or Roman Catholics bombing Protestant pubs, or Protestant terrorists bombing government buildings in Oklahoma.

 

I would agree with you that his conflict with his sexuality and his religion may have had something to do with it. Time will tell. His first wife says he was violent towards her. I am less inclined to believe that you can blame religion for his actions. Other Muslims or Christians who are gay find no need to mass murder and people said that they thought he had little interest in religion. I would guess his saying that he was doing it for ISIS when he was killing people came from interests such as wanting to be notorious rather than seen as a nutter and possibly trying to justify it in his own mind before he died as he knew he would.

He sounds, as most of these Western 'terrorists' do, to be someone with serious mental health problems and although we still need to find out the whole story I suspect that is what it will turn out to be - little different to a white mass killing at a school ...and yes, the ability to get your hands on powerful guns in the US clearly has a part to play in these murders.

 

This is an impossible question to answer. But did the other Muslims and Christians that are gay and appear to have no desire to go kill gay people have the same radical upbringing as him? It has already been shown that his father was a follwer of that particular belief structure.

It has been demonstrated time and time before that people with a more moderate upbringing settle into who they are more easily than those who had a more conservative view of their particular religion. My mother is bisexual and had a very traditional Christian upbringing. It was very difficult for her to accept who she is. Though because I was raised to accept myself for who I am instead of being taught that bisexuality or homosexuality was dirty and evil I accepted myself very easily.

 

I am afraid I have not read the entire thread and forgive me but I have learnt not to just take as true what is said on a political forum As for upbringing. He was brought up in New York so shares that with everyone else brought up in New York. Whether he was abused in his childhood may come out later but as to how childhood effects people - there really is no generalisation. Generally if someone is abused whether they then grow up to be an abuser depends on many things and one of them being the effect that other people have on them. People who are fortunate enough to find someone outside who takes an interest in them and points them in a creative direction frequently survive much better.

In general with being brought up with religion - well most of the people of my generation managed to let go of their religion. Obviously not having studied what his childhood was like limits my view but it would be unlikely to be the only thing to have affected him. It is true though that religion that we are taught when we are very small does brainwash us as we are too young to be able to discriminate and believe adults know everything. I doubt though that parents of this kind would be discussing homosexuality with young children. There is however no doubt that this could have a part in his thinking as it would with everyone else brought up to believe that who they are is not acceptable but no I cannot say from the information I currently have that that would be the sole component. It is highly unlikely.

I think what you are talking about there is being brought up with acceptance of your mother and yourself rather than being brought up to believe there was something wrong or sinful. That is an advantage and something quite different to what most people who are born into any religion experience. I also brought up my daughter to accept differences from very young and they are as normal as day and night is to her.

 

I haven't read the entire thread either. I like many people have a life outside of this forum. Well kind of anyway. But it is a topic that any political minded person has spent time reading about. Some more than others. And I'm sure there are a few that only read from sources that meet with their political ideals.

It has already been reported that while he was raised in NY. His mother and father immigrated from Afghanistan and are strong supporters of the Taliban. They have in the past been very vocal supporters of what is now called radical Islam. He called 911 directly before the shooting and pledged his life to ISIS.

Now in anyone's life no one factor in their upbringing or adult life that is truly all encompasing. But there are always some factors that hold more sway than others. And with parents that appear to be as devout to radical Islam as his parents it is not a stretch to believe that it played a major part in his decision to commit this evil act and should not be downplayed in an attempt to pander to moderates.

Yes I was raised with acceptance. But I was not sheltered from any religion I chose to follow. I was exposed to a great many so I could choose my own path. I was very fortunate that they were wise even given how young they started out.

Now take my boyfriend, who is also bisexual. He was brought up Christian. Though a more moderate form. He also did not have issues accepting who he is.

Understand what I'm saying?

 

I am aware of that and spoke of it earlier. Given that ISIS would throw him off a building I am guessing they will be wishing they had not claimed so quickly that he was involved with them. I think that ISIS and similar offers a rationality to people who want to engage in things which to everything else they know are unacceptable. It excuses their conscience. We had a couple of Christians in the UK who joined radical Islam and I say that deliberately, they did not join Islam they joined Radical Islam and then went on to murder a British soldier by trying to cut off his head - after they had run a car into him I think. (They both had mental health issues as well) I hence believe that ISIS and similar are frequently used as an excuse by people who wish to act in anti social ways rather than any 'philosophy' of Isis being the motivation. One of the hostages who was released said there was not a Koran in sight.

Dad and Taliban does not on its own mean anything. Was Dad as a child one of the refugee children who was given an extremist education in Pakistan? He looked a bit old for that when I saw him and said that he would have handed him in. He did not sound from the little I saw of him at all extremist. Many in Afghanistan just became the Taliban in the first instance for survival and then after the US invasion acting they believed to protect their country and family.

They could either go with it or against it but I have not yet seen his parents extremism - as I said he did not look at all extremist to me. It is true that what we learn when we are very young we believe. However if what they say is in conflict with what our society says we soon come in contact with that. That of course causes conflict. Each person who develops poor mental health as this guy clearly has has their own history. Homosexuality would cause a problem to people of any religion which saw it as sinful. I really don't know what you are wanting. You seem to be arguing that it was being brought up in a background of extremist Islam which made him go on his spree and that Muslims or Christians not brought up in extremist religion would not do that. It is impossible to know from the information we have. If we were all brought up in utopia circumstances possibly there would be no crime if society was also utopia but it is not at the moment.

The only things which appears to be coming out is that he appeared to be conflicted about his sexuality and that he had a generally aggressive temperament. There will be more but that seems to be all we know at the moment.

Your boyfriend no doubt was met with acceptance. Not all Christians are against homosexuality/bisexuality. Some are though very much so as are some against it who do not belong to any religion. No doubt it generally depends on upbringing. You are trying to make a generalisation about your experience.

 

Add a third category. It now appears as well as being mentally ill and Muslim he was gay. From the descriptions of his ex wife he does sound as if he would have been manic depressive-bi polar. The point is this-do we now hate all gays because he was a self hating gay? Do we hate all mentally ill people because he was mentally ill? Its ridiculous to lump all Muslims in with him. People have read my posts on this forum. I am a strong supporter of the US and Israel and other countries in their war against Muslim terrorist extremists but I am the first to say do not label all Muslims terrorists or Palestinians as terrorists because I lived in Israel and I know watching terrorism dehumanizing all Palestinians is just as evil as when Muslim extremists do it with Jews Israelis, Christians, Zoroastrians, Bahaiis, Kurds, and gays or women. No thank you.

I will not attack Muslims or hate Muslims over this. Extreme Islam I will criticize and speak out against as I do my own religion Judaism when its in the hands of extremists. All religions have extremist (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s and let's be real gays are hated by them all.

I am 60. I can't claim to understand the gay lifestyle. I grew up in an era where gay men hid in the closet for fear of attack and ridicule and lesbian women were considered freaks. It then changed with the 60's civil rights movement challenging all minorities to be proud of themselves.

I still have basic prejudices that men should not be feminine or emotional. Its my problem. Gay people helped me laugh out loud at such prejudices just he way I had good laughs with them over anti semitic stereotypes I detest. I came to see gays and lesbians no different then any other minority group-and the stereotypes as I grew older I learned were as b.s. as what they do with Jews, blacks, women, everyone.

I defend the right of gay people because they do the same about my being a Jew. The gays I know have coped with the hatred the same we we Jews have, with art, theatre, writing, self effacing humour. Its no accident gays, Jews and blacks came together in creative arts. Its what minorities do as one way to express sorrow and rejection.

The issue here is a bit about what goes in to the mentality of hating gays. Its about people who use Islam to justify hatred. Its about people who use any religion to justify hatred. Its multi-faceted. There is no one way to explain it but this I and most people know-the ability to access assault rifles and purchase them like cigarettes at a corner store, its got to stop. You Americans have to get a grip on yourselves. Your country, everything you stand for, should not be confused with the right to own assault rifles. Your nation is too good for that. Its about how it offered promise to anyone who wanted to bust their butt. This fascination, this love affair with guns, its not how you build a nation today. Vision, positive ideology, advanced scientific and medical technolog... that's how you build a nation. Guns? They are a necessity for certain people who have to hunt for food or protect themselves from dangerous wildlife, or the police or military but citizens? You need to own assault rifles? Is that what's happened to your country?

I am not telling any American what to do. I am just expressing an opinion from someone who respects the U.S. I don't say what I do to put down the U.S.

I say it because I hate seeing or loyal ally to the south kill itself over and over again.

 

but it does not prove that his actions were SANCTIONED by that terrorist group

 

Your meds Sam -- take your meds.

 

Then why have they taken credit for it genius?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-claim-idUSKCN0YY0VU
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/isil-takes-credit-for-mass-shooting-in-orlando-224242

 

Why would they employ crisis actors to carry a pretend victim past the news camera and TOWARDS the Pulse nightclub?

Here is the Google Maps street view confirming the landmarks, showing that they were walking TOWARDS, not away from the supposed scene of the shooting!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1...2a662f20e2c7c0!8m2!3d28.5196046!4d-81.3767987

And The Math doesn’t add up…
http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-math-that-doesnt-add-up-orlando-shooting/

 

Opportunity.

 

If he indeed was gay it would be easier for him to except it without Islam demonizing homosexuals.

 

I suppose the bigots are a tad confused as to who to persecute today - Muslims, gays, or the possible illegals who may have been among the murdered since many were Hispanic.

 

How many alternatives are there ?

Limit all liberties to everyone as equels (Gun control) OR limit liberty of just a few (Muslims or pick any other group) OR do nothing dramatic domestic while bomb deserts in Iraq and Syria for show mainly.

Europe had the same problem with border control and they continued with option 3, I think after all is said and done both Hillery and Trump will continue with 3 as well.

 

There are several reasons for it, but the one that stands out in comparison with Islam is the end result of the killing. Islamic fundamentalism teaches that the way to heaven goes through sinners' and unbelievers' hearts. Kill 'em, get the whole package - redemption, eternal happiness in Paradise, women. Getting himself killed in the act is the martyr's "life after death" insurance: being dead, he won't be tempted to sin again.

Maybe his mental health issues were due to conflicts between his upbringing and real life. Fundamentalism does that to people.

One imam on the (now banned) Al Muhajiroon forum was asked if a Muslim is allowed to save the life of a dying nonbeliever. "Yes", he answered, "if the nonbeliever converts to Islam first". Reading that sent frozen shivers down my spine, because the underlying assumption behind this answer is that nonbelievers have no right to live. Makes becoming a martyr so much easier.

Of course there are other categories of people, beside Muslims, prone to anti social-behavior. That doesn't mean that Islam (or rather certain interpretations of it) doesn't play the main role - as both motivation and trigger - in extremist Muslims' anti-social behavior.

It seems to me very odd that some people would point to Christian fundamentalism (or other fundamentalist ideologies) to prove that Islam is not to be blamed. "Look, others do it too!", complete with quotes from the Bible. Yes, but if one can claim that Christian fundamentalism based on the Christian Bible is the root cause of Christian extremists' behavior, why wouldn't one be able to claim that Islamic fundamentalism based on Islamic holy texts is the root cause of Muslim extremists' behavior?