Teachers: paid too much, or too little?

A little while back I got into a discussion about teacher compensation - don't remember why exactly it came up - but I said that public teachers are overcompensated. Unbeknownst to me, there was a teacher in the group - eek!

So thay kind of thing never goes over well - people tend to take such comments personally, as a suggestion that they personally are lazy or some such, and that was the case on that occassion. But I really stand by it - teachers are overpaid. The immediate response I hear from any teacher, as if it was a political discussion they immediately insert the talking point that public teachers earn less than their "college-educated peers". I'm surprised how often I hear this - I'd expect thay teachers wouldn't have the audacity to just oversimplifying things and, in essence, complain that people with engineering, business, accounting degrees etc. earn more. Of course they earn less than the average college-educated worker. The average college-educated worker isn't in a heavily saturated field (I've heard the same teachers lament the competition, where literally hundreds of applicants apply for one opening). The average college-educated worker works more hours, in a less rewarding field.

I think the most succinct way of showing that teachers are overcompensated is simply this - put it to the private market. If teachers weren't public employees with guaranteed salaries and benefits, would the median compensation for previously public teachers increase or decrease? It would clearly decrease (we can see this by comparing them to current private school teachers, where the median wage is lower even though private schools perform better with less resources, but private schools also have the flexibility on the other end to pay top dollar for an exceptional teacher). And while I so often hear the same teachers lightly scoff at military service, you can bet your butt that if we compare soldiers and sailors to the private market, they'd be paid a whole lot more if they weren't public employees.

 

I know a high school counselor that makes over $100K per year for working 9 months out of the year. And she'll retire at half-pay for the rest of her life at age 57.

That's a nice gig.

 

If you can read this... thank a teacher.

 

I taught high school science for about a year.

I think the administrators who do not teach are very much overpaid, and the teachers are underpaid, especially for the first five years when many quit from the stress and low pay.

The teachers with 5 plus years of experience tend to get the easier classes, and they have more of a vacation in the summer instead of working toward the often required Masters degree.

In the worst schools (probably over half of public schools), the teachers are friends and relatives of the administrators, and are often not certified for the subject they are attempting to teach. Many schools also expect the newest teachers to coach a sport after school for free.

Yes, teachers get a pension for retirement, but there is a huge turnover for younger teachers so that most give up and never retire from teaching. Teaching is a lot harder than it looks. I went back to college for a Masters degree and got a job in another field with a lot less stress and a lot less corruption.

 

They provide a compensated service - should I also be thanking the cable company I pay for the Internet service I get? Even if they have a government-backed monopoly and, based on market prices elsewhere, grossly overcharge foe their service?

- - - Updated - - -

I think the one place where public teachers have a fair complaint is in science and math. The point here is that those with an English, math, or related education degree are overcompensated as compared to the private market for their fields, but math and science teachers are not. Some states offer incentives for such areas, but as I understand it's just a few thousand more.

That said it's common for the first few years to be more challenging in any career. Doctors have to go through a residency where they Ean little while working to the bone. Lawyers in their first couple years often don't get paid much but work heavy overtime. It isn't in any way unusual.

 

in rich areas teachers are overpaid with well behaved students, in poor areas they are underpaid with unruly students.

 

I could read before I ever set foot in a class room so did my son. I thank my Mom whose example I followed when I read to my son every night before bed time.

 

If you feel your ability to watch over 100 channels of crap is on par with your ability to read this reply... then certainly!

 

What a wonderful world we live in where no adult with children can't read and they all teach their kids to do it before sending them to that terrible place where the workers are supposedly overpaid for doing what you seem to think should be done by parents and therefore is a total wast of time and money!

 

From talking to my brother who was a teacher and my wife who is a guidance counselor, some of the issues you have with unqualified teachers is that the athletic department has to much of an influence in hiring. You have coaches with a heath degree teach physics. I personally think that with the trouble we are having getting are kids educated we should not even have school sponsored athletic teams. Let's just teach the kids. If there is enough interest in athlics let sports clubs start up and do that on there free time.

 

Though I don't think it's a good idea to hire a health Science degree to teach physics, I think the athletics department should play some role. The extra-curricular activities are a large part of education.

But I also think they should bring back shop class and teach every kid some basic skills. There was a study and book I read a while back that tied such hands-on education to success... wish I could remember the specifics well enough but at this point I just remember the overall conclusion.

 

Silly ass damn assumption I taught school a year, worst I was ever paid. Hell It was bad enough in the seventies that I took a 12 dollar cut in take home pay to quit going to school and start teaching it. I got paid the princely some of 7800 a year 600 of which was because I coached fifth and sixth grade boys and girls basketball teams. I will tell you this right now you can tell what kids have books in the house and which ones don't almost literally by looking at their grades. A failure to read to your children when they are young ought to be evidence of neglect.

 

Anyone can teach. It's just NEA propaganda.

 

I agree that those fortunate enough to have literate parents do indeed have an advantage.

But I also agree with the notion that we are defined by what we do for, or to, the least advantaged children in our society.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course... and any idiot can be the president also!

 

We agree on one thing but face the facts in many schools education suffers to have a winning team. I hate it when I talk to a teach and ask them what they do and they say I am a coach, obviously reaching is not the first priority.

 

A good teacher is just as important to society as a good doctor. Perhaps even more so. Does that mean teachers should be paid like doctors? Probably not, for one doctors have way more overhead.

Are teachers over paid? Some are for sure. The unions protect the slackers at the expense of the producers.

Is privatizing the answer? Maybe. I don't see that as giving us a more equitable system where opportunity is equally divided between rich and poor. I see inequality in educational opportunity as biggest contributor to most of our social ills

 

Well, a few years ago, I looked up average teacher salaries by degree. The average teacher salary is about 5/6 of the salary of a person with the same degree outside of teaching. Since teaching is a 10 month job, that is about right. I taught for 8 years. I don't anymore. I get paid a lot more for the job I have now. Teaching is the hardest job, mentally, physically and emotionally, that I've ever had. My general observation is that private school teachers are inferior to public school teachers. They just aren't as professional or as well educated. I've been married almost 20 years. In that time my wife has taught/administrated in both private and public schools. Most private school teachers would flounder in the public schools. That's why they are willing to work for lower salaries. IMHO, teacher salaries would remain about the same, after a few years shakeup, if they were all private employees. Most teachers wouldn't work for much less than what they are currently working for.

- - - Updated - - -

Won't happen anymore. The days of outrageous teacher benefits are over. Newer contracts don't include the above kind of things. Heck, in my state, the teachers hired in the 7 or 8 years haven't even been able to get tenure.

 

No doubt by candle light in a log cabin

 

The admins really aren't getting overpaid as much as you think. Most of them are working 10 hours a day (i.e. they get there before the teachers, and leave after the teachers), and have to attend almost every athletic event, and afterschool major event that a school offers. In addition, they are working all summer. My wife has been both a teacher and an admin (assistant principal and principal), and is currently a teacher. She doesn't work nearly as hard as a teacher, as she did as an admin. It's good for us. The thing is, teachers really don't have a clue about what admins go through in a day.

 

Well, based on the substitute teachers my wife sees, you are wrong. You do have a point when it comes to three or four kids--anybody can teach a few kids. It takes a professional to effectively teach 20+ kids at a time, when you have a handful of ESOL (English as a Second Language) students, a few crack babies, a child who's oldest brother just killed her oldest brother, and a few special ed students to boot. Classrooms these days aren't like they were when we grew up.

 

Private Schools across the board dramatically out perform public schools.

I'd venture a guess that has a lot to do with parents who actually care about their child's education, thus take a more active role in the process.

I went to private school k-8 and than went to public high school and community college. I was receiving a higher quality education in the 8th grade than I did in high school or in college. In high school I would say I had maybe 3-4 good teachers out of 25. I had one good teacher in college, which is why I quit going.

My child is the the 3rd grade now and he's attending public school. We have made sure he's had the best possible teacher the last three years and I don't have a complaint there. It's just that their education standards are so low thanks to no child left behind that we have to push him 1-2 years ahead of their curriculum.

No child left behind is ruining our already poor education system.

I'd say teachers are underpaid, simply because they hold a higher value to our child's education vs administration. School admin is wayyyyyy over paid for the results they produce and they waste ungodly amounts of money in the process.

 

I think the value of a teacher in America who gets paid to educate the masses is much more valuable than some CEO twerp who gets paid a fortune to outsource American jobs.

 

Depends on the level of admin. School level admins work for every penny they get. It's the higher admins that are wasting the big money.

Well,

 

Two things I would insert into the discussion. The first is we are not satisfied with the quality of teaching or teachers we have today. That suggests we are not making a sufficient offering to draw in or keep the people we want teaching.

Also, we pay teachers for the time they spend in the class room. It's not possible to execute that work without considerable preparation, for which we do not pay. If you think their hourly rate is unreasonable, consider all the hours worked.

It's a performance. The professor or teacher is attempting to lead students through an educational experience, one they've built (without compensation) and will manage (with no support). Their performance in leading students through that experience is different each day of the school year. Can you imagine executing hundreds of different performances, cold, with no preparation day in and out? It's not possible. We know that. Teaching contracts assume it is.

You are welcome to your opinion, mine differs. All I want to ask is that you consider both the hours for which teachers are not paid and the fact that we are not getting the people we want in teaching. That won't improve by demanding more and offering less or by pretending the work is less than it is.





"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights." — Muhammad Ali




​

 

That's just factually wrong. CEOs are paid to help a business make profit. If they aren't performing than they are fired.

Lebrun James makes a lot of money because a lot of people pay a lot of money to watch him play basketball. Arguably a teacher, doctor, police officer, fireman, or EMT has more value to society than a basketball player but that's not what justifies their pay.