Decendy in Australia

Now I have discussed this before in several ways but never so directly. So in we go

I have had many discussions lately, some stoush with the moderators for some have made me look to other discussion and I have noted several considerations to support my point about the loss of decency in Australian community.
Example, I see in discussion, on a large event a parent spoke to their child about joining activity and the child told them they had a discussion a school and decided because X they were not going to do Y. I said nothing, but I would have been Furious, I would have marched down to the school demanding the sacking of the teacher and then placing complaint to the education department demanding removal of this teacher from any education job in Australia. Bit over the top??? Well, when you allow another person outside your family to teach your child their standards, you are contributing to the reduction in decency. IT matters nothing of if you agree with the matter or disagree. At no time should anybody other than the family shape their child’s standards. As the child grows the child becomes far more gullible to outside influences and less respectable to the family unit who removed themselves. I bet if the teachers were teaching children drugs are OK they would bounce of the walls.

HOWEVER, Australians like to think they are love world-wide. If they only look to their neighbours they might see it is far different than they think and only getting worse. When I have talk to many people of different nations one of the first things that they hate about Australians is they have no national pride. Often I am asked, how can people take for granted the advantages and opportunity given to them and not be thankful??? So how can they??? Common decency dictates to be thankful, Another symptom???

Just recently, a drug fuelled rampage has seen 6 died and many injured, many would consider this to be from mental illness. I would suggest not. Now all these of course have been comments on this forum for those who want to take offence where none is intended. It is pure and simply to demonstrate the level of acceptance as decaying decency becomes more prevelent. Nothing more.

SO when I see.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...with-french-rugby-club-toulon-20170201-gu2upb
I have to ask, were has common decency gone??? A 12 week ban??? Yeah their star player got caught with cocaine. Slap on the wrist and back to roll modelling children he goes. Oh cannot serve a ban off season, well get a deal somewhere else roll modelling children around the world.

So, what should be done??? What can be done??? Or is it just all too hard???

 

have to laugh spelt the title wrong...

 

Hmmm,
have a good look in the mirror and ask yourself, what standards and ethics there are you teach your child.
I think it is good to have teachers doing the parenting part as so many parents just aren't able or willing to do....
By the way, not for a million bucks would I want to become a teacher.....
Regards

 

So you predicate your comments with an attempt to demean the OP and expect respect in return... Clearly it is not the OP that needs to look in the mirror.

You are happy for a teacher to instruct everybody’s children who they teach their standards and ethics??? So if a teach told your 10year old that sex at 11 is ok, you would not be concerned because it might be difficult for other parents to teach their children??? So you would be OK with your 10yo taking drugs is OK as long as you don't get caught???

Who judges what standards are reasonable??? Who polices what is reasonable??? Since you welcome teachers parenting your children, I am guessing it is up to the teacher.

Seriously, you believe it is OK for a teacher to parent your child because some are not willing or able too??? Clearly, that is the point isn't it??? If you degrade the family unit you are teaching disrespect which ultimately reduces common decency...

Since what I said about this particular point was "At no time should anybody other than the family shape their child’s standards. As the child grows the child becomes far more gullible to outside influences and less respectable to the family unit who removed themselves. I bet if the teachers were teaching children drugs are OK they would bounce of the walls."

You attempt to insult and demean is demonstrated by your deliberate attempt to mislead the comment by selectively quoting. Considering the particular quote never mentions teachers we see a clear intent to insinuate insult were and I quote "who want to take offence where none is intended" Obviously you are one that has taken insult over something that is not said of you, inferred of you or even hinted of you. Clearly that motivated your lack of addressing the premise and demonstrating lack of respect of forum members and the subject itself while you expect it in return. One might have thought respect is earned and lost, if you provide none why should you expect it in return…

 

I was going to say something similar, well not as personal though. I cannot imagine what society would be if we relied on parents as the soul purveyors of morals and decency, we are reading in the papers what one WA father did to his 11 year old daughter. I am not saying that this is the reason, it is definitely the most extreme, but there is a huge array in between this and good values. Are parents worried about debating their children over these matters, or are they worried their own "bad" values will be unearthed.

Yes there should be a limit to what is taught at school, but a limit in depth, not breadth. I am not saying the curriculum is right, quite the opposite. What I am saying is we should teach societies values, a consensus of societies values, and all of these things have been debated, and most of those that complain took no part in the original debates.

Sometimes they go a little too far IMHO but there are those that will disagree and I a sure our good friend will disagree with me. But the pendulum will always swing, somethings go too far one way, somethings too far the other way, but then again that too is relative.

When they start running practical labs I will be concerned, that is traditionally self taught, fumbling in the bus sheds.

 

Your description doesn’t make the key details clear. If there was a discussion in class and the entire class agreed to a single conclusion that would be questionable, especially if there was undue influence from the teacher. If there was a discussion in class covering all of the relevant facts in an unbiased manner and the child independently reached their personal conclusion as a result, I wouldn’t see any issue. I also think the age of the child and the precise nature of the subject are relevant too.

Unless you lock your child in the basement until their 18th birthday, I don’t see how they can’t be influenced by everyone they meet and everything they see. That’s basically how children learn about the world. There’s clearly a limit towards indoctrinating children with very specific believes and principles without the parents knowledge or against parents will (thought I’d suggest that applies to parents themselves to a certain extent) but the way you’re putting this across suggests you’re taking the restriction too far.

Maybe the need civics lessons in schools so children can be taught the standards of national pride… wait, what.

I think that’s less a question of “decency” and more a question of how illegal drug use is handled, in sport and wider society. Based on a brief reading-up on his case, I’d suggest it should have been viewed as more of a medical issue than a legal one so it should be about a ban as a punishment but a preventing him playing until he’s stopped using drugs. That might even improve the role-model issue too, presenting him less as a returning “bad-boy” but more as weak and sick having worked to get better.

 

Granny says it sound like an Aussie problem...

... she don't want to get inna middle of it...

... she don't want to get her...

... billabong caught inna wringer.

 

It doesn't matter what subject, whatever I say you rave against.
Almost like a bull in Spanish arena.
You don't like me, okay. Or fair enough, to use an Aussie term.
However at the end of the day it is not me, you have a problem with, but yourself.
I hope in all our interst you have a speedy recovery,
regards

 

Clearly you predicated your comment with attempt at insult. So you have nothing to complain about when you decide comment is insulting to you.

As, you again, have nothing but insult one would wonder why you commented on the first place, since you did I have complete right of retort.

So again, it appears your insinuation is self-reflective. In future if you wish to discuss subjects do so with respect rather than denigration of people.

You have no credibility on this point, playing the victim might play with your fellow trolls but it does not pass in the real world...

 

Of course my description is lacking of detail, the point was that the parent has had absolutely no input into modelling the standards of the Child (it would appear). Since it was a comment from another member, I can not vouch for the validity of the comment so I made comment as a possible symptom or result of decaying decency in Australia which compounds the issue. The facts are hersay even though they came from a supposed parent.

Children are influenced by the people around them. Many have greater influence depending on relationship I am sure we all can agree. BUT children are also influenced by the people who provide the information to shape their minds. IF all about the child are providing that influence, that information, that standard then the child does chose for themselves and guess what, the child’s parents have far more influence over the child than any other person in the world, IF THEY SIMPLY TELL THEM.

As the child grows they adopt their own standards which comprise of parental influence and self-determination by their own empathy and study. If the parent leaves that influencing to a third party, such as a teacher. Eventually the child will distance themselves from the parental attachments (in standards) to outside influence and become open to manipulation. I am sure you can join the dots from their.

Maybe not national pride but teach the children in school just how good they have it in Australia and why they should be thankful. I really don’t know the answer to that one it has been generations that has seen that decayed.

Seriously, in the nations football codes so many times we talk about players caught taking drugs. One particular star front page photos using recreational drugs (similar here) and miss a game as punishment back the week after. Oh they are so sorry they got caught. Just the point of the teacher (above) children are so impressionable. But they also create their own understanding of the situation. As I say, they are sorry they got caught, not for the actual incident. Children are ten foot tall and bullet proof, they won’t get caught, then they are hooked on crystal meth robbing the local drug store because they are no football star so they do not have the support of a team that needs them to play, they end in the gutter.

Much harsher punishment needs to be seen to be metered out, these drug cheats need to stop feeling sorry they got caught.

 

AS the point is far deeper than just this one comment being focused on, let us consider if the father was taught better standards would the incident you discuss have occurred???

Getting away from that, since the previous comment points out how children are influenced and how teaching standards are not branding them but influencing them. Did you consider that the father was influenced by outside sources as he grew up??? It does not detract from his culpability but if people start getting back to basics, things might change.

Curriculum does not include teaching standards. You see the comment suggests the parent was told by the child this and that. The parent agreed with this aspect but left the question wide open, why did they not talk before?

You point out the very issue with this when you say.” Sometimes they go a little too far IMHO but there are those that will disagree…” (I’ll leave your personal attack for you to dwell on) If you going to complain that one area is to far then shouldn’t you be actively engaging YOUR child and impressing YOUR standards so when you child goes to school and discuss issues, they have a stance to begin with??? If you’re going to leave this to teachers really do you have a leg to stand on when your child comes home with unacceptable standards when you will not engage them yourself…

 

I don’t think that is at all clear from the quote as you’re reporting it. I certainly don’t think it’s clear enough for your reaction automatically assuming guilt of some career-ending offence on the part of a teacher. All we really have is a child getting some information and reaching a conclusion. There’s nothing stopping to the parent discussing it further with their child, providing further information and offering alternative conclusions to whatever the question is.

If a teacher is pushing specific views beyond the scope of the stated curriculum and without parental knowledge or consent, that would be a major problem but you’ve provided zero evidence that is the case in your example. On that basis, I don’t think this example actually backs up your “Loss of Decency” argument.

Well yes, and I think this at least somewhat counters your opening complaint. Of course, in this we’re assuming parents necessarily provide positive influence which is sadly not always the case. Sometimes in conflicts with parents over what is taught (or they think is taught) in schools, the parents are the ones very much in the wrong.

You missed the sarcasm. I was contrasting your opening example with the idea of teachers imposing a particular concept of national pride on children.

As I said, I think the question of drugs is a wider social issue and not primarily related to your question of “decency” (and I think there’s an important distinction between athletes using performance enhancing substances and them taking recreational drugs).

 

If Australia doesn't have "decency" now, then we've certainly never had it in the past.

The world isn't going to suddenly become a utopia if all children are home schooled.

 

You see here is the problem with your presumption. I did not quote the statement as that was not the focus. The point was that if I had been in the mix with something that went the way it appeared I would react in such a fashion. Facts in the matter are irrelevant as to what actually occurred.

I gave an account of a comment and made comment that by assuming the basic truth did happen I would react in such fashion. All you have to do is ask yourself “who is being indecent???” I consider that a teach who considers they have the right to impress their standards onto their pupils are being indecent.

As we see from the protagonists who decided to Troll the thread by trying to disguise their attempts at insult, belief is that teachers have a god given right to impose their standards because in their view many parents have no ability or their standards are below their ideal of what they should be so it is OK for a third party.

Yes it would be, ergo my reaction to a particular circumstance IF it did occur in my instance.

IT was not a case of backing as stated, it was a case of symptoms of loss of decency. What backs my case is the comments by other members who suggest it is acceptable. What backs the point is that these people believe that by backing the opposing of this singular point as acceptable stance.

However, this point is merely a singular issue the entire premise, In no way does it detract from the premise…

My opening complaint??? Sorry I was not complaining in the opening. I was pointing out that many things can demonstrate how decency is lost and how it is acceptable. How decency is lost to the greatest applause of people who simply pretend their compassion, to demonstrate an ideal or character trait they wish they had.

No didn’t miss it, but when your dealing with Trolls you don’t give them the ammunition for free…

Yes, it is a far wider social issue than decency. However, how people deal with such makes considerable difference to how the young generation model their own standards. The old “say no to drugs” becomes non-consequential to children when their stars are clearly seen to be taking drugs both illicit and performance enhancing. Again how can any parent tell their child drugs destroy lives when they see and hear how their role models caught using drugs get slapped on the wrist and then back at it??? I really do wonder. We are constantly looking at our lives, considering the how to set the wrongs to rights. The one thing that demonstrates decency to any growing mind is consistency.

Possibly the most conspicuous of the premise is that Blaming government for every little thing and demanding government to fix problems that are of our own making is simply ludicrous.

 

LOL, All communities have some measurable amount of decency, the question is, at what level???

 

The essence should be

Teach the child HOW to decide

Children will pick up societal values from so many different sources it is not funny. Parents. Teachers, friends, social media and of course TV.

You are NEVER EVER going to be able to control everything your child is exposed to - so give them the tools to allow them to decide for themselves in a rational manner. This has always been the centre of education of any form - give the person the tools to teach themselves

- - - Updated - - -

Define "decency"

Just reading today that Trump wants "women to dress like women"

Play devils advocate here - tell me that is a standard of "decency"

 

To the Above, spot on...

On the question, YES, that is a standard of decency called "Indecent". I as devils advocate I am guessing no argument here.

Decency, behaviour or an attitude that conforms to the commonly accepted standards of what is right and respectable, as the dictionary defines it. As your demonstration of Trumps misogamy, so many to pick from, the most prominent point to I question is how do you teach your child with such indecent displays undermining that teaching??? War on drugs, and all the children see is how their role models just move on without apparent repercussions. We all see the types of people around, as experience, but what our children see in their isolated upbringing builds far different picture.

 

Gary - all due respect you are confusing "decency" with "mores" (pronounced like "moray" as in eel)

We do not think that wearing of the Bukha is "decent" but that is because our more do not align with the mores of the cultures that see it as a norm

As for drugs - I have thought for years the root problem is our advertising. We should have had the slogan "You would not take a trip with someone you do not know - why would you take a trip with a drug you do not know?"

There are ways and ways of teaching

 

Returning serve. With all due respect No it is you who is confusing the issue here.
I do agree it is indecent in the burqa (I assume) case, yes common decency in Australia. BUT Australia has to tolerate such to placate a small number who wish to appear tolerant. However, what you talk about is more 1. The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group. 2. Moral attitudes. 3. Manners; ways. I am looking at the most common decency of qualities which prevent people from demonstrating immoral, amoral and indifference to community expectations, IN Australia…

That is the point, you can say what you like until your blue in the face but if people see different examples then advertise as much as you like, scream from the highest mountain and you will still remain at war with issues that have extremely devastating outcomes on communities.

Don’t get me wrong, people point to say the war on drugs is lost and so on and sit on the side accepting such examples to children that show them even if they do get caught, nothing will happen. The war on drugs is a generational battle that will always lose while we teach children with these examples…

 

I'm not sure if "indecent" is the word I'd choose, but nonetheless I fully agree with the gist of your comment.

I've long believed that some people who choose the teaching profession as a career are very likely predisposed to a kind of "crusader" outlook, where they're the "righter of wrongs", the "authority which sets people straight", and the final arbiter of what's correct and what isn't. It's not surprising that people with this subconscious mindset are sometimes tempted to use their position to spread their personal morals and standards among their captive audiences.

As we know, it's the simplest thing in the world for one person to implant their personal views into other peoples' minds merely by using extremely subtle non-verbal signals. And children are notoriously susceptible to such signals.

I think a teacher's first duty is similar to a doctor's, viz, "First, do no harm." It is not a school-teacher's duty or responsibility to "raise" students as if they are his own children. It's his duty to teach them the skills and knowledge that they will need in order to make a living. Nothing more!

Exactly! I think the single most ludicrous phenomenon of the modern world is the worshipfulness with which "sports stars" are treated. I doubt that I'll ever fully understand it. I've read that it's a peacetime "substitute" for wartime Nationalism. Maybe so. But soldiers never make obscene fortunes just because they go to war. And exceptional soldiers only receive fame and adulation when they demonstrate exceptional qualities. Kicking a toy ball into a net on a flat yard is NOT an exceptional human quality.

It's a very strange world.

 

Exactly.

I highlight the term teaching profession because it is clear that most do not realise what a professional does. As you allude they have to go to work and leave their personal opinions at the door and carry out the tasks they are trained for in a more clinical way. In the case of teaching they are expected to simply teach the curriculum without bias or opinion moulding any aspect of their jobs. As with ALL professions remaining professional becomes extremely difficult at times, making the difference between pretender and professional...

 

I still see plenty decency where I live, yesterday a young man picked up an older man's wallet he dropped outside Aldi, "excuse me sir, you dropped this". Unfortunately the big and ugly overshadow these small and simple decent moments in our day

 

Seriously, so many demonstration of Australians low standards.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...k=af5833e6b2ca63690b65ccca15cb8e9b-1486289945

What is the worse, urinating in a public place or assaulting police??? Fine maybe couple games ban??? Then right back to it...

 

The media was once described as a nervous system designed only to feedback negative things

 

Yes, too true but do you think a child sees that??? If a child is getting its standards taught to it at school do you think they will get around to working that out before the child forms a belief of the situation???