Keystone XL’s Collapse Leaves Canada’s Oil Heartland Seeking Payback

So Biden didn't shut the pipeline and all the former employees didn't actually lose their jobs? I doubt you can convince them of that.

 

Biden shut down the Keystone XL leg, for reasons Farnsworth posted, people lost potential jobs to build that extension. The Keystone pipeline is not shut down and nobody working for that active pipeline lost their jobs, it can transport Canadian crude all the way to Port Arthur and Houston Tx. as is. Im not sure your reply to me reflects the post you made I replied to the on transportation of crude, not the jobs that were never created.

 

No, I have NOT ONCE said ANYTHNG like that.

Do I need to report you for repeatedly stating that I have said stuff that I have absolutely not said?

Is THAT kind of argument the best you've got?

 

We have the number of refineries we have because there is a world market for oil and for oil based products, and the market justifies that busiess. It's capitalism. It's NOT patriotism.

In the US, 68% of the demand for oil comes from transportation.

That major use is shrinking and will continue to shrink as America (and the world) move away from oil based transportation.

There will still be oil based cars and trucks. There will still be other uses for oil. But, this is not a situation where there is some national need to do more for oil production.

In fact, we need to end the tax breaks we give the industry in order for our energy needs to be more properly exposed to the full creativity of capitalism. We shouldn't be paying more taxes in order to cause more oil to be used.

 

1. While energy from coal grew rapidly in the 10 years leadingup to 2012 or so, coal has produced a decreasing percent of energy in China since then. This is what they planned. China has experienced growth rates FAR in excess of what has been possible in America, and turnig the corner on coal has been a significant challenge for China. BUT, they are accomplishing that.

2. China leads the world in clean energy patents, technology, manufacturing, exports, installation - however the heck you want to measureit. The clean energy sector in China is incredibly important as any photo of air quality in any major Chinese city makes clear. Their commitment to clean enrgy can NOT be in doubt.

3. What CHINA does isn't how we figure out what America should do. So, I really don't know how you think what China is doing should affect what America is doing. However, I would point out that China's outreach to developing nations is aided by their ability to offer clean energy solutions to those nations. let's remember that developing nations have clear need for clean energy. And, they know it.

4. Your cheap shots at Biden have NO basis in reality, and I really think you need to STOP that kind of unsubstantiated CRAP.

 

What a Joke - now in complete denial of your previous position .. which was "Pro Industrialization" .. and that ain't no straw man.

Took the liberty of quoting your previous position directly

I said - Like building Pipelines - I agree - keep production domestic rather than outsourcing it to non industrialized nations - incentivizing and financing industrialization - of the planet killing kind.

You responded:
America is NOT in the business of working to make it harder for other nations. Nor should we be. We aren't a nation of sociopaths. We HELP.

I am arguing against industrialization of 3rd word nations .. you are trying to justify financing and incentivizing industrialization - defending getting oil from Nigeria by "Tanker" rather than Canada - Pipeline.

You are defending industrialization .. and now you say you were not..

I Said:
"You kind of talk around the issue but do not address my central claim - which is industrialization being the biggest environmental threat.
You are seeming to have trouble understanding basic mass balance - sorry but this is not a complex equation.
What ever we do not get from Canada - we must must get from somewhere else .. be it to a refinery or otherwise. This is not just Canada but domestic production in general.

Your to the problem - is to invest in and incentivize industrialization of 2cnd/3rd world - as that is exactly what you are doing by not building the Keystone and/or increasing domestic production."

Once again I remind you that by purchasing from Nigeria you are incentivizing industrialization..

You then once again defend the opposite position - Praising the Joys of Industrialization .. arguing for industrialization .. claiming that anyone that does otherwise is against themselves.

"The improvement in lives that industrialization brings to emerging nations is something that the US stands FOR, not against. Where did you get the idea that the US should strive to keep other nations down?rgument AGAINST yourself".

Not only were not only defending industrialization of the third world - above .. you were praising a policy that would encourage industrialization of the third world.

Now -- after chastising me -- the above being only a few of many post of yours - for saying that industrialization of the third world is the biggest problem .. crying "Anti American" "Industrialization is something the US Stands for"

You now disavow any and all knowledge of you ever holding such a position.

OK Will - Clearly you had your backside handed to you - once again .. So what is your position ? What does Will Stand for ?

Sourcing from Nigeria - "Tanker" as opposed to Canada -Pipeline - both incentivizes and finances industrialization .. it transports our pollution problems to Nations far less equipped to mitigate those pollution problems .. while at the same time increasing CO2 - via industrialization - and Ocean Pollution via Industrialization and financing a Petro Economy in a third world nation.

Your solution to the problem - thus far - has been the nonsensical fallacy of avoidance - "If we didn't use Oil - we would not have this problem"

Well Will - we do use oil .. as we have not arrived yet to a place where we don't - in the meantime .. we are using 20 million bpd of oil .. and wishing that we didn't - does not help us mitigate damage done by usage of this much fossil fuel.

 

Bull. My position has beey PURELY that America will not work to SLOW industrialization.

You are arguing for more oil. In fact, you are arguing for more low grade oil that is even more polluting.

That is the issue.

No. I'm saying that America is not going to work to prevent other nations from industrializing.

Plus, I've pointed out that we CAN work to help those nations develop clean energy.

I've NEVER said that except in that we can help other nations develop clean energy sources - reducing their dependence on oil.

We CAN move AWAY from oil.

The largest single use of oil in the USA is transportation. And, that is moving toward electricity - which has nothing to do with oil.

You want MORE oil.

I'm pointing out that our direction is one of needing LESS oil.

Also, we need to stop giving tax advantages to oil, as that is twisting the energy market.

Our nation should NOT be favoring oil. There just isn't any reason for our tax dollars to go to support oil.

 

What a laugh - backtracking specialist you are... and clearly The US choosing not to build the Pipeline incentivizes industrialization .. what I have been arguing all along .. so glad you have now adopted my position .. That the US is on the wrong path .. by incentivizing industrialization ... Doing nothing would be better.

Then you throw in a falsehood .. showing how clueless you are w/r to this topic - and how completely unable to deal with information that conflicts with your desire to incentivize industrialization.

How am I arguing for "more oil" .. that is a complete falsehood.. It is you that is arguing for more oil. . as more oil consumption is what you get when you industrialize the third world.

Your mind is twisted .. you don't know what you are arguing from one post to the next .. having absolutely no ability to grasp the environmental factors in play .. and wrong at every turn ...

but worse - completely unable correct your perspective on the basis of factual information.

 

So, again, you support nuclear power as a replacement, right?

 

I do, i just wouldn't let an American contractor build one; I would use a French or German company exclusively. American contractors are too sleazy and corrupt and it seems to be a congenital condition. I doubt they would be willing to be extorted by Biden or Harris, and the coal powered companies can pay bribes into Al Gore's 'carbon credits' scam cheaper and undercut the nuclear plant builders by a large margin.

 

"Again"?

I'm guardedly positive about nuclear energy.

I'm FAR more excited about what Iowa has accomplished.

In Iowa, the single fuel producing the most electricity is WIND!

And, states from Texas to North Dakota are moving to take advantage of that opportunity.

Besides the value of that clean energy, it is an additional revenue source for America's farmland.

And, it provides an attraction for industries that need electricity to move to America's heartland!

The real impact on US oil use may be more likely to come from the transportation sector, where the move toward electricity will surely eat into the largest use of oil in America - where transportation accounts for 68% of our oil use.

Also, home solar has become profitable for a significant percent of America's home owners. In many places that would be further improved by newer technology in home electricity metering.

Have you ever estimated the total area of America's rooftops?

I think it might be pretty terrific if home owners could supply their OWN elecricity, or at least most of it. And, in some cases people can become net producers. Surely there are a LOT of Americans who would like to be more free of the public grid - AND at a financial advantage!

From my point of view, I'm considering adding solar, charging my own car and never having to go to a service station again - except for the hybrid I might keep for distances longer than 300 miles. In fact, I might just rent a car for my relatively infrequent long trips - thus saving insurance costs, garage space, maintinance, depreciation, always having a new car for that, etc. I don't have to go more than 300 miles very often.

I don't have to be some greenie to like that!

 

I have a bit of a problem with calling Alberta, "The Heartland of Canada".

 

Alberta tar sand harvesting.
Is it worth it?
No!
​

Support B.C.
in the Alberta vs B.C. feud!

 

Wow. Just WOW!

 

But, no "like"

 

Canadian oil is transported by rail for $30 per bbl. By pipeline the cost is cut to $10 per bbl.

Biden did not stop the oil, he drove up prices.

 

In mid-October Western Canadian Select sold for $19/bbl - WAY less than the Texas standard of Western Texas Intermediate, probably as much as $50/bbl less.

So, I think your numbers are WAY off. Nobody is shipping $19/bbl at $30/bbl .

And, I don't see any excuse for trying to make tar sands sludge actually profitable.


The idea of taking people's property using law of emminent domain, risking serious water resources, raping the landscape, exacerbating climate change, etc., etc. in order to try to get more dollars to oil companies is just plain UNCONSCIONABLE.

Some folks hear "oil" and their knee jerk reaction is to try with all their might to get more money for oil companies!!!

But, it's time to think - at least a little bit.

 

Exactly -and the reason they ship it by rail - is because the Brent Price is even more expensive.

but - why on earth would we buy from "Nigeria" - Tanker , rather than Canada ? and you are exactly right .. it is not like we are "not going to use the oil" .. we use 20 million bpd of the stuff - and 45% of which is imported .. so we have to get it from somewhere.

Pray tell how "Nigeria" is the more enviro friendly option - and good luck with that.

It is exporting our pollution problems to other nations - nations far less equipped to mitigate these problems - in violation of the New Green Deal "Thou shalt not transport our pollution problems to other nations"

Which at the end of the day increases CO2 - coupled with a massive increase to Ocean Pollution...

Dumb and Dumber - and horrible economically as a side kick ... the Triple stupid .... and we have only just begun.

 

Biden is just that dumb. And clearly getting dumber. Well said.

 

Here are some new numbers to look over.
https://www.strata.org/pdf/2017/pipelines-info.pdf

Pipeline is still the cheapest. Rail is faster than pipeline but more costly to move.

The term tar sands sludge is not what moves through pipes.

They remove the sands in Canada to be reused and clean the oil to a degree.

The refining process completes the journey from Canada to the end user.

Western Canadian Select (WCS) crude oil monthly price 2020-2021. In January 2021, the average monthly price of the Canadian oil benchmark Western Canadian Select (WCS) amounted to 40.04 U.S. dollars per barrel.Mar 4, 2021

• Monthly Western Canadian Select oil price 2021 | Statista
www.statista.com › statistics › western-canadian-select-mo...

 

Democrats have managed to try hard to demonize oil.
Early on they demonized the oil companies but not the oil. Today they demonize oil.
While electric autos are out and for sale, other factors prevent the public from buying them. Which is why the boys in Congress hand out freebies if you buy an electric car. If Electric cars were economically an advantage, oil powered cars would be a relic of a former age, like Horses are.

What tax advantages to what oil firms

What about tax kickbacks for buying electric? Bad idea?

 

Here is an analysis from Canada on the problem facing both Canada and the USA under Biden.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/cost-of-pipeline-constraints-in-canada.pdf

 

Oil is so 20th century.

 

Compare the time spent recharging batteries vs using the pump to fill your tank with fuel.

Can you imagine hundreds of autos lined up to be recharged?

 

"Keystone XL’s Collapse Leaves Canada’s Oil Heartland Seeking Payback"

I entirely do not care about the environmental angle on this deal. For me the issue is the long term availability to a vital resource for the United States and Canada. Allowing Keystone XL to be completed means one thing and one thing only, that we lose our access to that oil. Once it reaches the Gulf and the deep water ports for oil super-tankers, it will be on the global market. On that market it will be bought by the nation so desperately in need of oil for their continued growth and military expansion. That nation is China.

Today Canadian oil feeds American refineries in the mid-west and Pacific north-western states. Flowing in long existing but smaller pipelines, it depresses prices in those regions. In those smaller pipelines the oil reaches as far south as storage tank farms in Oklahoma.There is ZERO need in the USA for expanding the reach and volume of Canadian oil, it has been doing for Americans what we need it to do, increasing our supply over the long term.

America needs as much of every type of energy as it can get. Old forms and new. It is foolish to support selling off a vital resource for short term profit..

What the USA and Canada should be doing is negotiating a treaty to keep that oil within the North American region and extend its lifetime.Not sell it off to the worst enemy we have on the planet so they can use it to continue building their modern deep water navy, their air and ground forces..