Is Russia a threat to Western Europa and the U.S.?

you (and many others) ignore the obvious.

 

No we don't. We have an unusually magnificent grasp of the obvious.

 

Well that's a lot of bullshit to unravel along with your other comments but the 2014 R of D you refer to was a Coup by the US government that overthrew the last Democratically elected president of ukraine. You've got two weeks until ukraine celebrates its most famous national holiday.....for a WW2 Nazi. Helluva parade they have in Kyiv on Jan 1.



Do you have any idea who this is and who the busts and pictures are of????

 

All those other nations listed are

1) Far closer to likely enemy territory than the U.S. meaning they provide valuable bases for U.S. forces in any potential conflict.
2) Do not have military commitments (unlike the U.S) with nations in the Pacific and Asian regions.

 

Correct, except for the 'free' part. Remove it and you're spot on.

 

Are you excusing NATO nations not making their NATO commitment of 2% of GDP on military spending?

Luxembourg has the highest GDP per person in NATO.



They clearly don't give two damns about doing their part to support the alliance. They are shorting their fellow allies to the tune of $1,189M and they are most able to afford it. I don't mind helping those willing to help themselves, but I have no desire to cover for freeloaders.

1.6% of GDP looks like it's above the median spending on defense - apparently that's enough for most of the free world and we are majorly overspending.

https://www.defensenews.com › pentagon › 2023 › 11 › 16 › pentagon-fails-sixth-audit-with-number-of-passing-grades-stagnant
Pentagon fails sixth audit, with number of passing grades stagnant
'For the sixth year in a row, the Pentagon failed its annual audit. The result is not a surprise. The Department of Defense's assets are vast and decentralized, amounting to $3.8...'

Clearly we are providing them more funding than they can keep track of.

 

There is a strange vicious circle.
There are hundreds or maybe already thousands of threads about Ukraine on this forum.
Please see some examples of such threads at the end of my post.

But American users say that they don’t want to speak about Ukraine because the main thing is that Russia is a threat to Western Europa and the U.S.

OK, this thread deals with the question: Is Russia really a threat to Western Europa or the U.S.?

However, American users don’t want to speak about the subject of this thread; they want to speak about Ukraine in this thread instead.

What have Ukrainians been fighting for since 2013?
Was there a threat for ethnic Russians in February 2014 in Ukraine (Crimean question)?
Has the Russian Special Military Operation in Ukraine been provoked?
What kind of a country is modern Ukraine?

 

Correct. NATO has attacked Russia. That's the whole point. NATO overthrew the legit president of Ukraine back under Obama and Nuland. NATO has reneged on every promise made to Russia during the administration of Bush I

As Ike suggested in 1961, the military industrial complex shapes and enforces US foreign policy, one based upon intimidation and military aggression.

 

NATO has not attacked Russia. Russia HAS ATTACKED Ukraine in 2014 after the Revolution of Dignity. Ukraine was not a member of NATO nor was seeking membership. IT was seeking membership in the EU, the same as Russia in the 1990s, but Russia had to do many reforms before it could join the EU. EU is not a part of NATO although Putin has inferred that relationship from time to time. In 2022, Russia committed open warfare with Ukraine, and even then, in 2022, Ukraine was not seeking membership. It is seeking membership now, and NATO is considering it seriously. Finland has finally joined NATO, so has Sweden, and now Russia, after it has attacked the Ukraine now sees NATO on its Northern flank just a short 45 an hour or two away from its Naval HQ in ST. Petersburg and its bases in the Northern fleet near St. Petersburg. It also has Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania in the Baltic, but they joined in the early 2000s under GWB. Even then, Russia never really complained but said it was "disappointed when Putin had his first stint as Russian President. Now, he is seeking his third term, a violation of the Russian Constitution as ratified in 1991. He is seeking his third term with the provision that no person can see more than two consecutive terms as President.

As for the Treaties, nothing in the treaties suggests what NATO has done is in any way a violation. The problem is the old-school thinkers who still think like the Soviet style. If NATO sneezes the wrong way, they believe NATO is up to something. This is beyond pessimism, even the infamous Russian pessimism that the political establishment has. But nothing can point to NATO attacking Russia or threatening its interests internally or even national security.

 

There are other threads about Russia that was not instigated by you Robert. You may want to do a search on that. But I have commented on them whether it was the poster Destroyer of Illusion or others.

That being said, if you want to look at Ukraine, look no further than the reason why the Revolution of Dignity was started. If President Viktor Yanukovych had not rejected the EU agreement at the last minute, things would have been different. But he rejected it after years of negotiating and wanting, publicly, to get into the EU. That probably would have saved this whole bloody mess. But it meant that Putin would have less say on the country and the country would have slowly drifted away from Moscow's influence, and that is something Putin did not want.

Economically, Ukraine was at a crossroads. Although 55% of the land was used for farming, its farming equipment was still 1950s and 1960s-style soviet equipment, obsolete, crap equipment compared to farmers in the EU. Modern equipment from the EU would have been too damn expensive for the average farmer. Yet, the country supplied 50% of all wheat exports of the world, notably to Russia, North Africa, and even Turkey, just to name a few. It did have industrialization in its larger cities. But it also took a while from 1991 to 2000 to privatize the industry and there were "economic growing pains" much like Russia. In both countries, oligarchs emerged. Most, if not all, of the oligarchs had ties to the old regimes before the Berlin Wall fell. This caused a financial crisis with its local currency and with Russia not wanting to trade with Ukraine over the revolution, a petty reason, if you asked me. But from 2019 up to 2022, despite all the Russian interference in Ukrainian internal politics, their economy was improving again until the damn war was started again by Putin.

I consider Ukraine much like France in the 1940s during WW2 and Russia much like Germany in WW2. Not politically, but economically and militarily. That is my reference point.

 

LOL, showing pictures of questionable sources is not a way to win the argument Bill. For starters, none of the links prove your claim. There are allegations of that, but nothing conclusive. We do have conclusive evidence of the coup in Argentina in the 1970s and the installation of the Shah in the 1960s, but it was a Cold War era in which we were dead set on preventing the spread of communism in those days. But none today. I have heard similar arguments that the US government encouraged Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait in 1990 this. Personally, the Revolution of Dignity was going to happen when the President of Ukraine rejected the EU agreement at the trade table, the last minute. The incontrovertible fact that most citizens in Ukraine wanted to join the EU since 2000 or so, which would have helped their economy thunderously is the main reason why Ukraine's revolution began. IT was not started by US intelligence, nor encouraged, but we more than likely took advantage of the political chaos. From 1991 to 2014, Ukrainians felt more and more like they were Europeans much like Germans, French, or Belgians. Russia did not want this because it would have lessened Putin's influence. And yes, Putin was doing much the same in Ukraine as you allege we did. You just chose the wrong side in this argument. Nothing more, nothing less, and your master, Vladimir Putin, thanks you Bill

 

Talk of Russia Invading NATO is 'Complete Nonsense'.

This 'is a manufactured talking point, not a serious foreign policy strategy discussion. The invasion of Ukraine was a criminal act, but attempting to compare it to Hitler’s march into Poland or Caesar crossing the Rubicon is simply a false equivalency.'

'Putin had his own reasons for invading Ukraine. We certainly don’t have to accept or agree with those reasons, but we should at least understand them when debating foreign policy decisions. Putin has resented the eastward expansion of the NATO block for many years. When talk began swirling about Ukraine possibly being invited to join, he saw that his country’s entire western and southwestern borders would be pushed up against NATO borders. Sensing weakness and complacency from the Biden administration, he clearly thought the time was right to pull the trigger. (The plan backfired to a certain degree because now Finland has completed NATO’s western wall, bringing the border only a stone’s throw from St. Petersburg.)'

'Putin may be evil, but he’s not stupid. This invasion has exposed his military as being far weaker and less capable than most of the world had previously assumed. He’s already lost a ton of troops and equipment and public support for the invasion in Russia is already fading, though most fear to speak about it aloud. And while Russia’s economy has proven to be surprisingly resilient in the face of sanctions, they are clearly not helping his country’s financial growth. Attempting to take his military into Poland and beyond would unleash a massive war that would likely go nuclear sooner or later. It would be a suicidal move.'

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/12/17/putin-talk-of-me-invading-nato-is-complete-nonsense-n599494

The claim is a load of crap made up by the 'we need to keep funding Ukraine “as long as it takes”' crowd made up of Biden (or Obama in his earpiece), Democrats who can't think past the latests talking points and GOP Neocon Warmongers who always want to have war going to justify military spending that they skim through 'donations' followed by cushy jobs like Nikki Haley enjoyed while out of office.

The time to negotiate a settlement was while Ukraine had stopped Russia's advance on Kiev and forced them back. But instead Russia consolidated in the East, protecting the Russian populations in Eastern Ukraine, and there will be no dislodging them.

Bribed Joe urged Ukraine not to negotiate and they were dumb enough to listen to him. Now he's in a bloody expensive stalemate that is killing population he needs to the tune of 200,000 killed and wounded, both military and civilian. Imagine what it's like for the Ukraine civilian populations trying to live their lives in the midst of a raging war'.

'An August report by the New York Times, citing anonymous U.S. officials, put the Ukrainian death toll at close to 70,000 and the number of wounded as high as 120,000.'

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-1.7053035

Americans are tired of funding it, Europe is tired of funding it and Zelinsky's economy is flat on it's back. The idea that Russia is going to follow this with an invasion of Poland is the talk of fools.

Putin has shown that clearly today's Russia is not the former USSR, and Poland far more powerful than the Poland of the Cold War period. Quite frankly Poland has to be looking at how weak Russia is, and feeling pretty confident that they could hold their own if Russia wanted to get froggy.

Frankly, China, who has had a lot of pushing and shoving on their border with the former USSR, have got to be looking at this Russia's performance and realizing that if there are some border areas they want to take, that this Russia really isn't in a position to do much about it.

 

How's the 3 day op going Bill?

 

What is ...."hot air.com".....it must be just that because it closed my attempt to access it....typical of the "cheer team" here to post possible viruses.

BTW .....Putlerstan has done a masterful job of preventing NATO expansion....Finland/Sweden are on board with Kapoosta-stan having an additional 700 miles of NATO border.

I remain master strategist.

 

Why the hostility Bill.....is it possibly that the SMF(Special Military Failure), has not gone according to plan?

 

Heyy....isn't that bottom pic at your house Bill?

Cool bro.....I didn't know you and Zaluznyi were tight?.....tell him I said ...Hi!!

 

Yes, I made that point in my post.

 

Fear mongering, it's the most profitable scam of our generation..

The age of Sheeple..

 

Are you noticing how often polling differs from the lying fake news propaganda narratives, as of late? Between Russian Collusion, COVID origins, Vaccines, the Lying Fake News Media credibility is about safe as an all you can eat buffet for the staff of The View.

 

J f'n Christ the nonsense

ditto

My master? You're just a ****ing troll.

Russia has never gave a **** whether or not ukraine joins the EU. This entire conflict has to do with the US always sticking it's ****ing nose where it doesn't belong. Ukraine needed yet another bailout and Yanukovych got offers from the IMF (EU/US) and the Russian Federation. The Russian offer was superior. Russia wasn't making ukraine sell off millions of acres of farmland to IMF sponsors. The US saw this as an opportunity to spread its influence into this area with the IMF deal, and thus spread NATO as well as decreasing Russia's sphere of influence. The US instigated and orchestrated the Coup in 2014. Vickie Nuland was caught on tape confessing the whole damn arrangement.

Pictures of questionable sources? Really now. I've stood in some of those places where the pictures were taken so I don't need you to verify anything for me and frankly I don't give a ****.

The bottom picture, the person you have no clue....is General Zaluzhny. He commands the entire ukraine military and those busts, portraits and flags he's flying are ****ing Nazis and Nazi flags.

So spare me this bullshit about clown zelensky being 'jewish' so there can't be any Nazis in ukraine......the whole damn military is commanded by a guy that worships WW2 Nazis.

 

Did NATO use Russia weakness to expand east-ward? Yes!
Why NATO did it? Because Eastern European countries had very bad experience with Russia/Soviet Union and begged NATO to accept them.

What was traditional Russia/Soviet Union traditional behavior?

Circassian genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide

Winter War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, officially the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,[1][2] was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union with a secret protocol that partitioned Central and Eastern Europe between them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

Invasion of Hungary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia, 1968
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/soviet-invasion-czechoslavkia

Soviet invasion of Afghanistan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War

Russian invasion of Chechnya:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

Russian invasion of Georgia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

Russian invasion of Ukraine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

Is Russia a threat to Western Europa and the U.S.?
Judging by Russia historical behavior - YES!

 

You can't even figure out the difference between Russia and the Soviet Union. Remind me again who is committing genocide now? Oh, yes, your mother country and ukraine. Remind me again who destroyed Yugoslavia? Russia....oh no, it was NATO. Why did Russia enter Georgia? To stop genocide. Why did Russia enter ukraine? To stop genocide. I guess they need to enter israel as well.

If you want to judge historical behavior, then NATO is hands down the threat. If you want to go back centuries, it was the Poles attacked Russia...many times. France tried to defeat Russia but failed. Germany tried and failed. The Ottomans tried and failed. Do you know the difference between east and west? All of the aggressors came from the west.

The US still occupies Germany and Serbia (kosovo). Thanks for playing

 

America is a gullible nation. Take a minute and talk to a high-school freshman.. They are very astute when talking about XBOX games, not much more..

I've seen smarter deer in the headlights

 

Some inaccuracy to your claim Bill....as usual.

In Yugoslavia....or former Yugoslavia....Milosrvic should've stayed home along with his toys..not embark on an "adventure" that fast forward would end up with him doing himself in.

What genocide was there in Georgia?...in Ukraine?

So by leveling Bakhmut and Avdivka Bill.....how's that stopping genocide?.....care to explain?....or I suspect this is way over your head?

 

They did a poll of these clowns changing "From the River to the Sea". Most of them did not know who Arafat was, and those that did, some thought he was a former Israeli Prime Minister.

That's what US education is turning out, kids that don't know facts, can't use reason, but are very good at following Left Wing propaganda talking points.