We have been just as wrong in the past

I recall in the Vietnam War, we were convinced we were doing all the right things, but now
that war is mostly down the memory hole, covered by a conclusion that it was 'a mistake'.

The narrative was: we are standing up for poor little democratic South Vietnam against aggression from big communist Chinese-backed North Vietnam.


That narrative could be used in pretty much any conflict we are in, because we always
join the weaker side because the stronger one won't buy weapons from us.

As for reality, well, that didn't support the narrative, but it doesn't need to, because the
narrative is the reason we give - questioning it would be unpatriotic.

And it is about virtue signaling.

 

There is a fundamental problem with any disagreement,
that - people can't admit they are wrong, it is a functional
contradiction

are you right that you are wrong?

People can only handle that they were wrong.

 

Yet despite bumps along the way America is still the economic superpower and the vast majority of Americans have functional toilets.

 

Are you saying it was ok to kill Vietnamese because they didn't have
functional toilets?? I've never heard that one before.

 

Or that it's ok to kill Russians because they allegedly don't have
functional toilets?

I don't like these debates where the grounds of the debate keep
shifting all over the place.

 

To simplify matters and consider only the issues of right and wrong,
of moral and immoral,

you can refer to the Gulf of Tonkin Incident in Wikipedia which laid out
the reasons for starting the war and decide if you think the reasons
were sufficient. I can now see I should have put up an opinion poll.

 

Which means what? Economic success sometimes is gained through immoral actions. I'd rather have less economic success and more morality in our actions on the world stage.

 

We had moral poicies for Vietnam under Roosevelt. We had a good relationship with Ho Chi Minh, and had OSS Deer teams aiding him in his struggles against Japan. But after WW2, France wanted their colony back, to continue to rape the land and people there for resources. Roosevelt was completely against France in this, basically telling them to **** off. Truman betrayed our Vietnamese allies, and we caved to capitalist greed, painting communists as evil. The whole red scare thing was so ****ing stupid. The entire cold war was ****ing stupid.

Communism and Capitalism are just two paths to supporting a ruling elite at the expense of everyone else. Capitalism is just an easier way to hide it, and gives the illusion of helping everyone in earlier stages. But by later stages of capitalism like we are in now, the ruse becomes more apparent.
It is nothing to fight a war over.

 

Been there, done that.

Vietnam protesters (not me personally, but I went along) called the police "pigs" and called returning soldiers, many of whom had been drafted, "baby killers." We were young and unwise.

What we got right was the fact that we had no business in Vietnam and were only there to defend the Michelin Tire Company's rubber plantation. Vietnam used to be a French colony.

 

I disagree. Some of us are honorable enough, and bold enough, to admit to being wrong when it's pointed out. It is not easy.

 

Definitely. After four deployments in Iraq, I had many arguments on here trying to support the invasion, as it was very difficult to admit that all of the sacrifices I and my brothers made there were for extremely corrupt and immoral reasons. It took me years, though in the back of my mind I think I always knew the truth. Finally, I just couldn't keep lying to myself, and began saying on here that the war in Iraq was wrong.
I wish I had the courage to admit it sooner. I like to think it helped me to start to call BS now when I see it though. Its all a process, I suppose.

 

Vietnam was mostly driven by the assumption that if Vietnam went communist, the rest of southeast Asia would go communist. It was part of the "containment policy."

A political Science professor I had summed it up well so far U.S. interests where concerned. "Vietnam did not matter." At that time West Europe was far more important.

As for Vietnam today, I don't agree with their economic system, but they have been a buffer against China, and they have left their neighbors alone. You can't ask for much more than that. Vietnam as always been suspicious of China, and that has not changed.

 

Success that you feel good about. Whatever does it for you...

 

That's the trick they play.

They think they come out smelling of roses.

 

The mafia was also the economic superpower of the underworld.

It didn't make their actions honourable.

 

Definitely a process of maturing but it helps to have friends and family that you can have honest and productive discussions with.

Some ppl are isolated and can be groomed, for want of a better word.

 

What is overlooked today is the religious dimension of the post-WW II anti-Communism, especially as it applied to former colonies like Vietnam and China.

By the end of the 19th Century, most of the global map was colored in a few colors, red for the British Empire, green for the French Empire, and so forth. The vast majority of the global population was ruled by Christians, and the mood of the day was that soon the missionary efforts of Christian churches would convert the whole world. Religion went hand in hand with Empire.

When former colonial possessions like Catholic Vietnam rebelled, especially when they rebelled under the banner of Communism, they wrecked the dreams of Western Christian Imperialists. Communism was reviled as much or more because of its attitude towards religion than because it was bad economic theory and practice. "Communism" was usually uttered as "Godless Communism".

It was a big shock when the Chinese Communist Revolution succeeded. Fingers were pointed and the question was asked, "Who lost China?" And it was not so much the loss of China to political democracy and economic free market capitalism as it was the loss of China to Christianity. After all, Chiang Kai Shek may have been just a scum warlord, but he was influenced by Madam Chiang Kai Shek, the former Methodist schoolgirl educated at Wesleyan College in Georgia. As the daughter of a Methodist missionary and the sister-in-law of Sun Yat-sen she was a major political figure in the Republic of China.

When it came to French Catholic IndoChina, there was also a religious dimension. The big expansion in the American effort to save South Vietnam under its Catholic President Ngo Dinh Diem was put in motion by Catholic President JFK. So the Vietnam War can also be seen as an effort to save the investment in Christian missionary work, rather than have South Vietnam be taken over by the Godless Communists (or the equally objectionable, self-immolating Buddhists).

 

It was a mistake because we did not have the will to win. We let a free country be taken over by a communist country.

 

We were in Vietnam prior to the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

 

I think I would prefer US partnership than Mafia rulership.

 

It's the same thing.
Gang warfare and revenge hits
over drug money and biscuits.

Bloods and crips on the world stage, yet you deride bloods and crips.

 

Fine.
Back on topic: **** russia

 

Four tours? Geebus, dude ... thank you for your service.

Right you are, self-awareness is a process, one that doesn't end until we die. That is, if the process even begins. It isn't for everyone.

 

The bold IS the reason we were there. IF you can prove your other statements, be my guest. You won't because you can't.

Your premise is a complete leap from the reality of the statement you're answering.

You're the one doing it.

If you think Vietnam was an "immoral action" , you should join the college protestors. Like them, you have a warped understanding of history.

The religion aspect is interesting but incorrect.
The bold statement has it backwards.

Did you forget about My Lai?!!

Iraq WAS a mistake

The first line is correct.
The second line is not.

A false equivalency to make a false argument.

I don't know if we didn't have the will but the fact is we didn't TRY to win. We made policies that sabotaged our own efforts.



The fact is is that Truman, Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter and Reagan ALL had the will to stop Communism from world domination, and did.

 

The war started before the Gulf of Tonkin incident. In fact my Vietnam Service Medal has three Oak Leaf Clusters which means I participated in four campaigns. One in 1961, one in 1962, one in 1966 and one in 1967.

Tonkin Gulf was a turning point in the war, but it was expected at the time that the intensity of the war would pick up. It did not need the Tonkin Gulf to do it.