The problem is with the social welfare system, not with the Constitution. Finally, an admission that calling the Constitution a "legal technicality" was not really a brilliant path to go down. What else is debate?? This is a debate site. If you're not prepared to have your words analyzed and responded to by others, what are you doing here? You realize that that "I have a friend who is ______" has become a cliche for covering up bigotry, right? Not saying you're doing that, I'm just saying that's how people might see it. Technically I'm a boutique litigator, not a small town practitioner. Small town practitioner is my dream job, though. I'll get there. Well, I'm a libertarian, not conservative, so that might cause some problems when those social issues roll around. I'm not average. Huh? What does how I spend my leisure time have to do with how valuable my work time is? It's not a waste of time to exercise my brain during off time from work. This is one of the ways I do that. I'm attorney who dictates to his clients and employer, to a large extent, when and where I work. If I were not valuable to both, I wouldn't have that luxury. How does this personal attack relate to what cenydd said? He has exhibited many times on this board his patriotism for his home country. You say he has no conception of what happens in other nations, yet he does not live in the U.S. and has a very good understanding of our flag rituals. And where in the Constitution is your so-called original meaning found? I can't wait to read this.
Not the point Mak....the American flag is a symbol. Why can't you foreigners mind your own business anyway? Your own flag is a symbol it includes the Southern Cross, Union Jack and commonwealth star. Your traditional national team sports colors are Green and gold. Your National Floral Emblem is 'Golden Wattle.' You even have a 'coat of arms' granted by King George V. Then there is the Red Kangaroo and the Emu....Unofficial national mammal/bird. The Sydney Opera House can be seen in almost every Australian travel guide and who can resist 'Vegemite?' LOL Yes...All those things represent YOUR country... Our flag represents much more than a piece of cloth to us...We like to teach our children to respect what it stands for. Why can't you foreigners just mind your own business? Go have a can of Vegemite and box a kangaroo or something....
Idolatry. The flag is a piece of cloth with a colorful design. It does not have special properties. For someone who consistently attacks anyone who speaks of ideas as things (natural rights, existance of god, etc.) you sure put a lot of stock into magical properties of a thing. Who was it that you were fighting against in order to gain the freedom of others, and, if no one had gone to fight, what would those people have done to take away freedom from those in the US?
No one has claimed that the American flag has 'special properties.' The pattern is a symbol of all the people that have lived and died and indeed have shed their blood for this country. You can print it on a tin can if you want and it will have the same meaning for those that respect and remember the selfless-brave folks that gave their lives for our freedom. It is shallow and ignorant to project your thinking of what the flag represents on others who appreciate the flag and what it stands for.
Did they shed their blood for the country, or for freedom? The two are not the same. I suspect that it's the former, and generally by the order of someone who claims to represent the country, since most won't even fight for their own freedom.
It has had other important effects, for example, it has applied the Bill of Rights to the states, which, IMHO, was necessary to make it effective.
The discussion was about the flag. You claimed it is just a piece of cloth. I claim that it's pattern represents America which, in turn, represents freedom. Stop trying to side-track the discussion.
Fine, let's go back to Tom TeaPack's claim that the flag IS the idea of America and freedom and all that. I disagree. Freedom is held and maintained by the individual and not wrapped up in nationalist symbolism and idolatry whether that be a flag or a piece of paper with a charter written up on it.
LOL... Then why are you here? I'll translate your post: Oh, (*)(*)(*)(*), this guy caught me saying something really dumb. Maybe if I just talk down to him he'll forget about it. What I consider "unworthy" are people who use personal attacks as a shield against admitting their mistakes.
I see, so you think no nation should have any national symbol and you think national symbols amount to idolatry. That is the most idiotic viewpoint I think I have ever read here at the Forum. Next I'll bet you are going to raise the specter of Nazi Germany....
I think, far be it for me to put words in his mouth, that he favors the individual over the collective. Godwin's Law ... You lose.
Lets just eliminate states and make it ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE, then there will not have to be special amendments to give different groups special rights.
The constitution is a legal document. The flag is a beautiful symbol of America, it represents the states, the individuals, the wars, the blood and the pride and ability of the American people. It waves in the wind and is a wonderful and inspiring sight. In Battle and war it is a sign of home and hope. Coming back to a compound after a trip into Indian country and seeing that flag flying was an awe-inspiring and hopeful feeling, it meant safety, food and comfort (well, comparatively anyway). It is NOT worshiped, it is NOT an idol, it is a symbol of this nation, its good and bad, and if anyone wants to say the pledge it is OK to me, for what they are doing is pleding to this nation that gave us so much and that we owe much too.
No he considers it his right to desecrate the flag because it is 'just a piece of cloth.' He does not care that to most of US the flag represents those that gave their blood and indeed their very lives for the freedom we enjoy in America. Godwin's Law ... You lose.[/QUOTE] No, I said HE would likely invoke Goodwins Law...LOL
My emotions well up almost every time I see the American flag. But the Pledge always seemed like such a shallow expression of obediance. Anyone who really meant ill for our country would gladly recite it without hesitation. The very principles of Freedom of Expression of our country should mean that an individual should not be compelled to recite such a pledge. Now our National Anthem....I love singing the Star Spangled Banner, though those around me usually wish I would just hum along. The Flag is a very important symbol of our country. We don't need a mindless chant to make it important. If it were to the Constitution perhaps...
In the event that someone has not yet mentioned it within this thread, when Francis Bellamy (a socialist, by the way), wrote The Pledge of Allegiance in 1892, it did not contain the words "one nation under 'God'" which were added to said pledge in 1954 and as a direct result of the anti-communist witch-hunts of that era. Originally, the pledge read as follows: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The words "the Flag of the United States of America" were added sometime during the 1920s. I too am a socialist. And I too have written a "pledge of allegiance": I pledge allegiance to the Red Flag and the worldwide working class for which it stands, one people, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Yours. "Eddie Haskell"
He was not protesting the nation he stood up for not believing in god. That was the right thing for the OP to do. Why should there be allegiance to a cartoon character?
Exactly, smileyface! For although I swear allegiance to no nation state (only to the worldwide working class to which I belong), the myth that the "United" States was founded on Christian principles is just that; a myth. In fact, of the seven individuals who are generally regarded as having been this nation's founders, only John Jay harbored a Christian belief system. This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it-- John Adams Lighthouses are more useful than churches-- Benjamin Franklin Yours. GM
"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America". "And too the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God". Just those few words tell it all......America is a great Christian Nation on earth. Those that disagree just to disagree, especially the liberal jackasses, can line up and kiss my prize blue riibbon hogs fat ass.
Well, dixiehunter, at least you and I share common ground vis-a-vis your avatar photo. Good evening. GM
A symbol is not idolatry and I am fine with national symbols despite your lame strawmen. Investing properties in the symbol that make it somehow more important than human lives or something to be protected by harming others makes it idolatry. Pledging allegiance to a symbol makes it idolatry. Are you prematurely invoking Godwin's law in the event that I might do that which you accuse me of? Pathetic.
