Col Gadaffi was a name I grew up with, all through my four decades. And yet, until this year, I didn't take a special interest in the affairs of Libya, or what it was really like, from an inside perspective. All we had to go on was an often lampooned image of the Col, and, more recently, a hastily arranged more sinister slant put on him, up to the NATO action, and his death. And it is ONLY once you look into Libya with an objective eye, it is only when you see past the 'Mad Dog' BS that was continually fed to us in the media, well, when it suited, because it was not so long ago the US and the UK were parading him as a 'friend', it is only when you see past ALL of that, that you realise you're being done. You are cynically being lied to, manipulated, and exploited, so that you will see someone the criminal mafias of the West want to kill, as being 'just'. What happened in Libya was not just, and will NOT improve the daily lot of the Libyan people, that I am certain of. Take some time to read up on the education, the healthcare, and the land that they were affored, the Col did more than any President, PM or Pope - he shared Libya's wealth with Libyans. Ya think that the new foreign owned banks are going to do that? Ya think that this new regime are likely to do that? I am afraid that the more one learns about this, the more you see a tragic picture emerging, one that yet again, leaves me with the conclusion that our nations are in the hands now of true criminal mafia, they lie, they cheat, they steal, they murder, they are just like the original Cosa Nostra, but on a global scale. They are more dangerous than conventional mafia, as they are global, and causing death and misery on a massive scale. I read a comment recently, not on here, that Venezuala may want to place itself on at least orange alert. One could draw comparisons between Gadaffi and Chavez. They have/had the support of the overwhelming bulk of natives. They have that support because they have measurably made the lives of the people better. They both consider that a Parlimentary democracy is inherently undemocractic. And I agree. The true defition of a democracy is a country run by the people, not what we have today, which is some perversion, these elites pretending to act on our behalf, evidently running things on behalf of the people. That is not what democracy is. It may surprise you to know that Libyans never considered the Col as a President or PM, just the leader of their bloodless coup. One that was actually no longer the leader, since 77. This is true, it is written, you can go look that up. Libya, in practice, had no leader per se, again, look this up, people would get together, in public places, and they would decide policy, foreign and domestic issues, for themselves. If anything, they were truly democratic, and truly free, for no one in Libya wanted for the basic things in life, food, education, healthcare, etc. All of this makes me think of Chavez. He doesn't get as much attention from the American right, as others, but I wonder how long it will be before the same MACHINE makes him the next target, arming a minority of criminal thugs, in a 'revolution', and murdering him? Oh. And they have oil. So there is that, as well. Jack
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrvRpIokeAg&feature=related"]Sean Penn: The Truth About Chavez and Castro - YouTube[/ame]
Answer me this question: If things really were fine and dandy over in Libya, in Egypt, and in Tunisia, why did they revolt? Why did they risk their lives, vowing to fight to the death for their own freedom? It certainly wasn't the media over there. It was ran by the state.
Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez Frias: A series of Myths & Facts It became essential to highlight Venezuela and President Hugo Chavez on this site, for the simple reason that the US government spreads myths and lies about Hugo Chavez almost daily in American mainstream newspapers. The American people should study the truth behind the lies. They should know that Hugo Chavez is a man who loves not only the people of Venezuela but the people of the entire world. He is a man who, if he could, would put food into the mouths of all the hungry people, and would give medicines to all the sick people of this world. In him, we can understand how a real leader should function, how a real leader should and can take care of his country and his people. It is not so difficult to do. It requires only deep love. MYTH #1: HUGO CHAVEZ IS A DICTATOR FACT: Hugo Chavez has promoted more citizen participation in political processes than any other President, including those excluded or left out in the past for economic reasons. No other Venezuelan government has allowed as much transparency and citizen participation in its political system. President Hugo Chavez won the 1998 presidential elections with more than 56% of the votes, after he had promoted the creation of a new constitution historically ratified by popular referendum with over 70% support; he then won elections again in 2000 accounting for 59% of the votes. In 2004, a recall referendum, a provision set forth in the new constitution, was called against the Venezuelan leader, but he again made of with 60% of the votes, ratifying his government. All these elections were witnessed by numerous international observers, including the Carter Center and the Organization of American States (OAS), which found electoral processes in Venezuela to be free and transparent. MYTH #2: CHAVEZ IS A COMMUNIST AND IS CENTRALIZING POWER FACT: The Venezuelan political system is characterized as participatory democracy. Citizens may participate in political processes now more than ever before. The rights to private property, international investment, freedom of speech and association are enshrined in the Venezuelan Constitution. Current endogenous development programs are means for communities to become self-reliant and to govern themselves at a local level; they are true expression of decentralization of power towards local authorities. Add, setting up work committees to implement new environmental, media, property, and other important laws, involving citizen participation at all levels. The 1999 Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela implements five powers instead of the former three: the Executive, Legislative, Judicial, Moral, and Electoral. These five powers are autonomous and are not controlled by the Executive. President Chavez recently promoted a new concept called 21st Century Socialism, which is aimed at developing a new social-democratic model of government which guarantees social, economic, cultural, political and civil rights to all Venezuelans and allowing the country to prosper economically in the international arena. MYTH #3: CHAVEZ REPRESSES MEDIA FACT: There is more freedom of speech and press in Venezuela than in any other country in the world. Venezuela is the only country where private media outlets are owned by the opposition and where they openly promote biased political agendas. Private media outlets have a monopoly of information, they control four out of the five television channels in the country one of them is a state-owned TV station. Despite the fact that these media outlets supported the April 2002 coup detat against President Chavez, and later triggered an economic sabotage in 2003, causing the country billions of dollars in damages, none were shut down or censured by the government. At the end of 2004, the legislative passed the Social Responsibility on Radio and Television Law to implement a system of legal regulations for telecommunication in the country, very similar to those of the Federal Communications Commission of the United States of America, but less strict. Article 58 of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela guarantees truthful and accurate information. The new Law provides that all Venezuelans have the right to truthful information, as well as to avoid media manipulation, distortion, and fraud. For the first time in Venezuelan history, the government has promoted and financed community and independent media outlets, and provided them with the necessary resources, equipment and training for their development. Media outlets continue to enjoy the sacred right to freedom of speech. MYTH #4: CHAVEZ IS PROMOTING A NATIONALIST POLICY FACT: The Venezuelan political process is based on the doctrine of Latin American Liberator Simon Bolivar, and aimed at forging Latin American integration. The government of President Chavez has proposed a number of models of cooperation and integration with other countries of the region, such as PETROCARIBE, a program aimed at supplying 14 Caribbean nations with Venezuelan crude oil at preferential prices; PETROSUR, an energy platform between Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela and Uruguay aimed at strengthening South American integration; TELESUR, a television channel financed by Venezuela, Uruguay, Argentina and Cuba offering an alternative to large international media outlets, and which was born from the eyes of Latin Americans; and the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA), a project that has the purpose of implementing economic, social, and cultural exchange among the countries of the region, and which is currently underway in Cuba. Similarly, Venezuela has become a member of MERCOSUR, an economic and trade agreement reached by countries of the Southern Cone, and played a key role in the creation of the new Unity of South American Countries. At a national level, Venezuelas political project, called The Bolivarian Revolution by Liberator Simon Bolivar, pledges to recover all industries in Venezuela which were abandoned by previous governments. New government programs seek to guarantee food sovereignty by developing the countrys agricultural industry; setting up local cooperatives to promote endogenous development; and recovering Venezuelan culture and traditions. Think local, act local is the new government motto. http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2005/10/venezuelas_pres.html
That is simple. These so called rebels were part of the pre Gaddaffi regime, or rather relatives of them, who had once ruled the country, into the ground. That was a time when the Libyan people were not as they are today. They were illiterate, only 15% of the country could read and write. Gaddaffi made it a priority to educate the people, college ed, and now their literacy levels are 85%. What sort of dictator would do that for his own people? What sort of dictator would bother with the expense, when he could keep it all himself, and let them starve, and be illiterate? The title given to him by the Western media, it makes no sense, and is not consistant with reality. Of course you always have fringe groups, those that want power over the people, who are Libyan, and who wanted to bring Gadaffi down. But they really were not the majority, the bulk of their small population were supportive of him, and what he had achived for them, and I say rightly so. The 'rebels' were merely useful idiots, idiots for NATO and others with their snout in the trough, to use in their end game. Also, Libya was not a true revolution, their sort of revolution will never work, as it was not a genuine one, but one that was engineered by the West. It is not like the others.
The facts you posted about Venezuela refute all conclusions made by a large portion of the political science community. Modern Venezuela is considered a dictatorship that utilizes populist sentiments to forward corporate loyality to the Chavez government guised by illegitimate "leftist principles of increased political participation and a welfare system that creates equality."
That is all good stuff, and I guess it's a good thing he did do that, but how were rebels able to take over much of the country by early March, even before the no-fly zone was enacted? Surely not a small group of rebels could do so without the support of the population?
Back in March, these so called 'rebels' were nothing, it was just an embryo at that point really, remember, this is a play, and you are the audience, so timing is key to all things. NATO armed these people, and who knows, there may even have been intelligence operatives of NATO down there with them, not to mention the air strikes, I guess those might sort of give the 'rebels' a bit of an edge eh, if NATO were using air strikes.
By whom? And in the face of this, are you sure you want to go on? MYTH #1: HUGO CHAVEZ IS A DICTATOR FACT: Hugo Chavez has promoted more citizen participation in political processes than any other President, including those excluded or left out in the past for economic reasons. No other Venezuelan government has allowed as much transparency and citizen participation in its political system. President Hugo Chavez won the 1998 presidential elections with more than 56% of the votes, after he had promoted the creation of a new constitution historically ratified by popular referendum with over 70% support; he then won elections again in 2000 accounting for 59% of the votes. In 2004, a recall referendum, a provision set forth in the new constitution, was called against the Venezuelan leader, but he again made of with 60% of the votes, ratifying his government. All these elections were witnessed by numerous international observers, including the Carter Center and the Organization of American States (OAS), which found electoral processes in Venezuela to be free and transparent.
Yes, it is true that he advocates citizen participation, but it is arbitrary citizen participation in which he decides through the CNE who can have a say. He is able to prevent large groups of the worker cooperatives that he has created that don't comply to the wishes of his government from participating. The numbers for citizen participation are so high because he can decide which groups participate. When they say Venezuela is a "free and transparent" electoral environment, it only applies to those that conform to the criteria for participation. I know this to be fact because I just attended a lecture on this matter a few days ago. A political science professor from Clark University that specializes in Latin American politics designates Venezuela as a dictatorship that utilizes populist sentiments to forward illegitimate electoral participation and welfare to increase citizen equality. His research shows that this is a widely accepted premise within the political science community. http://www.clarku.edu/faculty/facultybio.cfm?id=459
Its all well and good to teach your citizens to read and write and share your wealth with them, but its been proven and will be proven more and more that Gaddafi killed his own citizens mercilessly. BEFORE the revolution. I can't say that we have the same evidence about Chavez, but I don't think I'd be surprised. A non-dictatorship does not kill its minority citizens as an act of oppression.
Okay. Prove it now. Give me proof of large scale killings by the Col, aimed at Libyans, and esp before this faux revolution. Or is it something you just feel sure is true, sort of, it must be, right..? Also, if that were true, and if the reasons for NATO getting involved were humanitarian, why didn't they go in before then, why not when these large scale killings that you allege were taking place?
Chavez doesn't kill his civilians. Instead, he tries to appeak to their sentiments of increasing electoral participation and equality, but has created a highly unequal system in which electoral participation and economic equality is limited by governmental patronage.
Correct - that is the job of Corporate America 2011 style. Then their most senior figures, like Hillary, they act in a ghastly way about it. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y"]Hillary Clinton on Gaddafi: We came, we saw, he died - YouTube[/ame]
Nice deflection, but that isn't the matter at hand. We are disputing the assesments of the Chavez government.
I have no knowledge of that which you may have studied, but will consider it, and get back to you. However, my main point is that sooner or later, the criminal mafia that paved the way for Iraq, Afghani, and now Libya, they may look to Chavez as there next bogeyman. These elites are systematically carrying out exectutions of just anyone they wish, and they are quite brazen about it now, at least with Iraq there was some effort of deception, but now they are just dispensing with that, and becoming more brutal.
I have known a Venezuelan for many years now (thanks to the miracle of the internet!) and I must say everything the media says about him is actually true. Law of averages; if the media spins the same lies repeatedly they will sooner or later actually be correct without even realizing it. This is that case. During the flooding of the most recent summer my buddy nearly had to surrender his apartment to a family which lost their home to the floods. This is sad and of course sharing your home with the unfortunate is the right thing to do. But the Chavez policy was to just kick people out of their homes and give them to the currently homeless. Basically giving one person a home by taking one from somebody else. During the protests which took place a few years ago by the students of the colleges (I do not know the full context and will not pretend to) the police fired upon the Universidad de Caracas (I think that's the name) with assault rifles modified for use with rubber pellets. My buddy had seven impact him and three penetrate his skin. Why was he shot you may ask? Because Chavez didn't like what the students had to say, not because they were rioting or anything. And he wasn't even protesting at that particular moment... He was walking to the doors to get inside and get to class. Caracas is the most violent and dangerous city on Earth due to crime and disease. My buddies neighbour and friend burried his father this summer when he was carjacked and shot at an intersection. They don't even know why, some guy just walked up and shot him and took the car. People do that a lot in Venezuela; shoot each other for the most retarded reasons. Two years ago my buddy witnessed a murder in the parking lot of his apartment when an argument over a trivial matter of sports escalated to a shootout. My friend had dinner, took a shower, and went to bed. he was asleep far before the police arrived (they didn't until the next day to collect the body). And during that same year he was bitten by a bug which causes chagas disease. These insects live in the many of thousands of cracks found in the walls of structures in Caracas. Fortunately the insect did not carry the virus. I could go on forever about how evil Chavez is and how much life is getting worse in Venezuela directly as a result of him and his cronies. I may not be able to speak of it first hand but every day I hear about my friend putting up with a tyrannical jerk off. http://caracasgringo.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/mapping-murder-in-venezuela/ Educate yourself.
Granny say he got one foot inna grave an' the other onna banana peel... Chavez suffers new complications in cancer fight Dec 31,`12 -- President Hugo Chavez's new complications after cancer surgery prompted his closest allies to call for Venezuelans to pray for him on Monday, presenting an increasingly bleak outlook and prompting growing speculation about whether the ailing leader has much longer to live.
Are you Libyan, Jack? I was in Libya in 1969 as a visitor.. My family was there with Esso Libya.. Ghadafi was not a good guy.. He was uneducated and had a huge chip on his shoulder. When Ghadafi deposed Idris Libya was producing 4 million bpd.. a year later it was producing 1.3 million and has never recovered. You see Ghadafi was young and so stupid he hired Tariki... who hated the West.
Plannin' for when Chavez kicks off... Waiting for post-Chavez Venezuela January 11th, 2013 - They don't get much more anti-American than Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.
