A Guide Back From The Depths Of Post-Modern Hell

Of course, all socially generated "material" [for lack of a better descriptor] is objective. Subjective only applies to individuals. The subjective is ego.

How would you characterize this difference?

Anything ego generated is subjective. Why would feelings ever be objective? If you lined up 1000 people and showed them a picture, the picture would be objective. If you asked each of these people what their opinion is of the picture, the answers would be subjective.

Everything knowable is constantly changing. Although we cannot know or understand the change, we can become one with it.

Our feelings are simply the difference between what is really going on and our perception of the same. And, of course, once things change enough so whatever we became attached to has changed [enough], this is where the suffering kicks in. This is why you must become one with the change.

 

Doesn’t subjectivity vs objectivity change based on your perspective? I mean like if you are a slave with no ability to change the system then slavery laws are objective facts. If you are a lawmaker then the laws on slavery are subject to your power to change them.

I think groups do have opinions. If congress agrees by majority that slavery should be illegal then it is the opinion of congress that slavery is illegal.

 

The subjective sense of a "right" gave birth to very objective sets of laws, regulations, customs, and traditions, throughout known history. Seems that "rights" are an emergent property of human societies, and as such are objective reality. Details like what the rights are and who has which right vary wildly between different societies, of course, but the concept itself is deeply embedded in any form of human society.

The fact that the concept of "natural rights" was generated by a human mind, being at first subjective reality for the individual involved, shouldn't be a factor in evaluating the meaning of the term today. The concept of "airplane" was generated by a human mind, being at first subjective reality. Are airplanes subjective reality?

Once expressed, one person's subjective reality becomes another person's objective reality. Once you write your thoughts in a post, a part of your subjective reality becomes my objective reality.

Natural rights are objective reality, like many other concepts that started their career as thoughts in the subjective reality of an individual's mind - airplanes, Political Forum, Christmas trees, boats, shoes, razors, etc.

 

I agree.

Seems you follow Kant's definition of ego.

There are plenty of different definitions for "self", both in philosophy and psychology. Psychology considers the interactions with the outer world an integral part of the self, while philosophers are more interested in the inner world.

Yes, at an individual level feelings are subjective. However, your feelings are my objective reality. Your answer to "what is your opinion of this picture" is your subjective reality and my objective reality.

Regardless of the nature of feelings, I'd say that feelings are important enough to not be dismissed as whims. I already stated that in my opinion the world of human beings is predicated on that which fulfills our desires and needs, on the subjective rather than the objective. We use the objective world to satisfy subjective desires and needs. Feelings are an integral part of the package.

Why can't we know or understand the change? What kind of changes do you have in mind?

I disagree with your definition of feelings. You defined bias, not emotions.

 

I guess my idea of self is more similar to the philosophical keeping in line with your definition, but I see the self as being empty [the Zen student I am].

I am not going to deny that feelings and emotion is not a main driver of human behavior, but having the skills to control these is rare. What made much more sense to me is to put these feelings aside [as much as possible] and concentrate on ascertaining the truth of the matter [as close as possible, anyway]. Of course, this is the main function of meditation.

It seems fairly plain that although it would be nice to have a well controlled self that can balance feelings and emotions, the reality of human life is that those who are able to attain this is ultra rare, and that the rest struggle simply attempting to survive.

The last decade or so has revealed just how fragile the ego is as all kinds of factors have coalesced to contrive mental health crises throughout the population [and particularly affecting young women]. The fact that institutions are honing exploitative skills designed to "mine" people's value through manipulating their feelings and emotions does bode well for people being able to get their self under control anytime soon.

 

Well your first two sentences were correct, then it’s off the rails and it’s all getting a bit silly.

I’ll take one more shot at it in an attempt to clarify.

Let’s take the Bible. Objectively it is a book. A bound stack of paper with lines of print. That is outside the mind, an object. Subjectively it must be read, understood and interpreted. The ideas held within are interpreted by individuals and groups. Those stories mold culture and social behaviors that are subjective, not objects, which are ideas that change over time, reinterpreted or discarded.

 

I don't see the link between Zen and the empty self.

Philosophy alone can't provide solutions to existential crises. Neither does meditation. Neurosciences and psychoanalysis are better tools.

A well controlled self is biologically impossible, because many, if not most, of our thought processes take place in the non-conscious mind.

The best way to deal with feelings and emotions is to understand what caused them in the first place. Constantly repressing feelings and emotions is a sure way to become chronically frustrated, depressed, aggressive.

Feelings and emotions are the truth of the matter, actually. The truth of the matter is that human beings have feelings and emotions. From an evolutionary point of view, human feelings and emotions proved their usefulness - we are the most successful specie on this planet.

I can't understand why are you trying to isolate one part of reality and claim that this part alone is the truth of the matter, and only this part alone can save humankind.

 

Do you exist outside my mind? Do your thoughts exist outside my mind? If your answer is yes, then you and your thoughts are a part of my objective reality. If your answer is no, you'll have to explain it.

I don't see subjective and objective reality as completely separated entities, like you do. Everything is on a spectrum. Think of colors, or gender.

Yes, ideas mold culture and social behaviors. But culture and social behaviors exist outside my mind, don't they? I'd say that culture and social behaviors are both subjective and objective reality, depending on how one chooses to look at it.

 

Exactly. It depends on perspective.

 

In Zen, all things are empty, and this is particularly emphasized with self. As you may know, all words in Zen point to the non-intellectual, so emptiness is a word attempting to get at the idea that things just are [and that's all]. You might want to read the, Heart Sutra, the most well respected "explanation" of Zen, if you have a moment. The most famous part is where it states that, "form is emptiness, emptiness is form."

Meditation allows to the practitioner to see things as closely to what they are as is possible. It would seem that this would allow one to deal with 'whatever' as good as is possible.

What is your educational/professional background, if I might ask?

Even the simplest of things is infinitely complex. The chances of understanding what has taken place [other than a catastrophic event] is almost zero.

The truth of the matter is the actual truth, not how we happen to feel about it. Think about what has taken place on this Earth in the name of people's feelings.

How do you figure that we are the most successful species on the planet. I would suggest that we are the opposite.

What I am saying is that the best we can do is to see things as close to the truth as is possible. Then we can react most appropriately. Seeing exactly what is going on is much more important than how we might feel about. For example...

You are walking down the sidewalk and out of the corner of your eye you see a three year old chasing his ball into the path of an oncoming car. In a split second, you grab the child's arm and save his life. No time for feelings. This is how all things can/should work. Feelings are your personal interpretation [laden with drama] of reality [which is almost always incorrect by varying degrees].

 

Uh no, my thoughts are not part of your “objective” reality. As we are doing here, I can relay my subjective opinions and then you may subjectively interpret them wrongly or rightly.

Objectively the color red is a specific reflected wavelength that can be measured. Subjectively we call that wavelength red. Some cultures subjectively include purple in the reds. Dogs subjectively can not see red. Bees can see many more colors that us, in the ultraviolet. We subjectively cannot see those colors but they are there and can be measured. In Japanese “hada” is a color not used in other cultures, it is the color of skin.

Gender objectively can be accessed through DNA, but that is not always clear. There is xx, xy, xxy, xyy, xxyy. But subjectively the sky’s the limit.

Cultural and social behaviors exist in the minds of the members of that culture or society. Members of other cultures or societies have a different mindset. There is no outside force/entity transmitting objective cultural rules. It is the group agreeing to follow the ideas or ideals of that culture which are impermanent.

 

Some psychologists and philosophers argue that there's no content to the self as such, the self being virtual and processual, a result of how the mind works. However, the perception of self is intimately tied to a sense of identity and belonging, having a huge impact on social interactions and self-esteem.

Autistic people have a weak perception of self. That says something about the necessity of a strong perception of self, regardless of its content.

Meditation is just a dive in the mind. All one can see through meditation is one's own model of reality in one's own mind.

Meditation, if taken to extreme, is addictive and can be dangerous.

I'm not a scientist, I just choose to trust science over any other method of dealing with reality. It helped me deal with dangerous people in unfavorable circumstances. There's a high level of risk in my work, some of my co-workers spend a lot of time in hospitals. Psychology and neurosciences offer me solid ground to stand on. I've never failed when I used scientific knowledge, as opposed to "common knowledge".

Maybe I'm just obsessed with perfection as much as you are, in a different way.

And yet, I understand feelings. Other people's feelings. I know how to change other people's feelings. I'm very good at it, and it's an important part of my work.

The actual truth is that feelings exist, regardless of what we think about it.

From an evolutionary point of view, humans are the most successful species. We are able to reproduce ourselves, our offspring's chances of survival are very high, and now we own the entire planet. We can live anywhere on the planet. We can eat almost anything and survive in almost any kind of environment. This is the definition of a successful species.

The truth is that we are universe, and everything about us is as true as the rest of the universe. This is my basic assumption. Humans are universe, just like hydrogen is universe. Feelings are universe, just like atoms are universe. All that exists is universe. Personal interpretations are universe, taking those away would change the essence of the universe, alter the truth you're seeking.

Why do you think that you can get to the truth by eliminating a part of that truth?

Do you really think that an individual devoid of feelings would care enough to save the life of a child? How would that even work, caring without feeling?

 

Identity is objective. You cannot anoint yourself "so and so" as so many people believe you can today. This is causing a great deal of mental strife and illness.

That's a pretty bold statement. Anything to back that up? Everything taken to the extreme can be dangerous. A dive in the mind? What does that mean?

 

So you are a counselor or psychologist? You say you know how to change other people's feelings? Can you give me an example?

You'll have to convince me that the battle for the planet is something other than the weeds v. the insects [on land, anyway] as these two will be fighting it out hundreds of millions of years after our sorry asses are long gone.

We can live anywhere? Look at what we need to survive.

I am not following you here.

If I had to speculate, I would say that the vast majority of what we do is without feelings. An unskilled physician is one who approaches the care of his/her patients using their own feelings as a guide. You need to be able to separate feelings from the truth of the matter and clearly see what needs to be done. Feelings are only about self.

 

Well, let me tell you a true story about identity. Two Polish siblings, both on the extreme right, both virulently antisemitic white supremacists, suddenly discovered one day that they were in fact born Jewish. They turned around and became observant Jews. So...was their former identity the same as the latter?

Identity is acquired, and it certainly can change.

Meditation is done in one's mind. You look inward when you meditate, not outward. It's like you dive into your own mind.

 

I've recently had to deal with a four years old whose parents went on a trip abroad for two weeks. After a couple of days, she was angry, frustrated, she felt abandoned by the people she trusted the most in the world. I told her that her parents loved her even when they were away, loved her all the time, when they were at home, at work, abroad, or anywhere else. I told her that they missed her as much as she missed them. Her mood changed instantly. She was happy and self-confident. I went right to the root cause of her distress, and changed her perspective.

Another, very different, situation, occurs when you have to deal with people's perceptions of other people. One's behavior is greatly influenced by one's perception of the others around him. I had to deal with an aggressive 21 years old autistic male, three times my size, in an enclosed space. He did everything he knew to assess my power and weigh his chances to establish himself as leader. In order to change his feelings, I had to pretend being fearless, unimpressed, very calm. Even the slightest change in my tone of voice could trigger violent behavior. I didn't shout, didn't get angry. I was half-dead with fear inside, of course. He gave up, eventually. I won with nothing but words and attitude, because I knew what caused him to behave the way he did.

You can change other people's feelings, and their perception of you. The tricky part is figuring out why they feel and perceive in a certain way.

In biology, evolution doesn't mean progress. It means change. Humans are able to change relatively fast to match their environment.

We don't need much to survive. The "much" you're talking about is meant to make our lives easier, happier, and free time for activities not directly tied to immediate survival, like arts and science. However, the simple fact that we are able to manufacture so many items to make our lives easier proves that we are a very successful species.

You said we can get to the truth by eliminating feelings. But feelings are truth, because feelings are universe, and the universe is true. Why do you think that there's a separate truth that can only be reached if we eliminate that part of the universe called "feelings"?

Feelings are not only about self. Empathy is paramount, human societies can't function without it. Empathy is what makes one save a child, or a stray dog. Lack of empathy is a severe disability.

 

Identity is conferred by others. In your example, the two were always Jewish but this does not matter. You can think of yourself anyway you like. For instance, I could tell you that I am a Japanese Maple tree. Although I could go around telling everybody that, it doesn't matter. People will not buy it. Identity is objective no matter what the individual believes.

The only way identity is acquired is if you do something to gain acceptance by a group or society. You had to do the work to get you professional degree, right? You could not hold yourself out as a so and so. You can not buy it, you had to do what society demands to have that identity.

I have been a very serious Zen student for over thirty years. If you would like to have a conversation about meditation, that's fine, but from what I can tell thus far, this is not an area in which you have great familiarity.

 

That's great...but let's stick with adults.

What changed was you. Good job!

Only people can change their own feelings [you own your own feelings kind of thing]. If you live to be 100,000 years old you will never figure out why people do what they do. Why people do what they do is caused by an infinite number of events preceding. The best we can do is perceive their actions as clearly as is possible and react accordingly.

I would wait until the fat lady sings to render such a judgement, but [on the surface] I'll take the "under" on the bet, "Are homo sapiens above or below fifth to last on the list of successful species."

Feelings are personal truths [for a moment, anyway]. Intellectual truth is what the real story is. Actual Truth cannot be known, only experienced.

Of course they are. Do you truly believe you have the capacity to "understand" another? We can't even begin to understand a tiny facet of our own lives! Empathy is how you feel. Present the same situation to 100 people and you will have 100 different reactions. Feelings are ALWAYS about self.

You confuse empathy with compassion which is understanding what to do based on perceptual clarity [seeing the truth of the matter]. You save the child or dog because this is your true nature not because you feel sorry. Feeling sorry [for yourself or others] is a great impediment to taking the appropriate actions.

 

I just signed up for chatGPT and the first question I asked was, "Tell me about the Zen concept of emptiness." The answer kind of blew me away as it's about as good as it gets [intellectually, that is, I think :]...

The Zen concept of emptiness, also known as "sunyata" in Buddhism, is a fundamental aspect of Zen philosophy and practice. It refers to a profound understanding and direct experiential realization of the true nature of reality, transcending conceptual frameworks and attachments.

In Zen, emptiness does not refer to a literal void or nothingness but rather points to the absence of inherent, independent existence in all phenomena. It recognizes that everything in the phenomenal world is interconnected and interdependent, lacking a fixed, permanent essence or self-nature. Emptiness is the recognition that all things are empty of inherent and separate existence and are, instead, intimately interconnected and interrelated.

This understanding of emptiness is closely related to the concept of impermanence (anicca). Zen practitioners observe that all phenomena arise and pass away, constantly changing and shifting. Nothing remains static or permanent. The realization of emptiness helps to dismantle rigid concepts and fixed perceptions, allowing one to perceive the fluid and dynamic nature of reality.

Emptiness is not just an intellectual understanding but is meant to be directly experienced and embodied. It involves letting go of attachments to conceptual thinking, judgments, and dualistic distinctions, and entering a state of non-discriminatory awareness. It is often associated with the practice of meditation, where one learns to observe the arising and passing of thoughts, emotions, and sensations without clinging or identifying with them.

The concept of emptiness is not nihilistic or a denial of existence but a recognition of the interconnectedness and interdependence of all things. It encourages a shift in perspective, seeing beyond the illusory boundaries of the self and recognizing the intrinsic unity of all existence. Emptiness is considered a gateway to liberation and awakening, as it can lead to a direct experience of the interconnectedness and interpenetration of all phenomena.

It is important to note that the concept of emptiness is inherently challenging to fully grasp and is often approached through direct experience and contemplation under the guidance of a qualified teacher. It is a concept that Zen practitioners engage with throughout their spiritual journey, gradually deepening their understanding and direct realization of emptiness through their practice.

 

If the effect has a cause, then it's objective. Since all effects have a cause, then all effects are objective - which would include thoughts, visions, emotions & feelings - which is why medical studies commonly use 'placebo' controls.

So the idea of 'subjective' is mostly meaningless. Everything going on in the mind is Real on some level/dimension.

 

Consider the following...
You are awakened in the middle of the night by a sharp pain [8 on the pain scale] in the lower right quadrant of your abdomen. You start to freak out because you have never had such pain before. You then have a moderate panic attack consisting of heart palpitations, rapid breathing, and profuse sweating which subsides once the six and half tacos you snarfed down last night are encouraged to move along. This is a subjective response.

All feelings are the same, your interpretation [and reaction] of events [real or imagined]. If the stimulus does not require interpretation or another is providing such, it is objective.

 

You have managed to define subjective an the unreal out of existence.

 

@impermanence sorry for the delay, I've been busy.

Consider this: if everything is interconnected, then feelings, which are a part of everything, are also interconnected to everything else. Ignoring feelings will effectively leave the gateway to liberation and awakening locked. The key is understanding where feelings come from and why, not ignoring them. Feelings are here, are real. have a huge impact on our lives, we need to deal with it.

I agree that we don't, probably never will, have complete knowledge. Unlike you, however, I don't think we need to have complete knowledge. We only need to have enough knowledge to survive and thrive, as individuals, as societies, as a species.

 

Although what you are saying may make sense, the idea that everything is interconnected is identical to saying that everything is a singular process, that is, we have no clue what's going on and the intellectual distinctions we make are wild guesses [at best]. Here's the important part...

One must always keep in mind that our intellect [although critical] is doing the best it can but it is a VERY gross approximation of what's going on due to the infinitely complex nature of reality. I get how important the role of feelings are in people's lives, but most people do not understand their nature and suffer greatly to this end. If you allow your feelings to control your life, you will forever be chasing your tail.

Feelings are simply a reaction that is almost always wrong ['things are never as good or bad as it seems,' kind of idea]. If you can watch your feelings as they arise, you will see that they are empty, that is, they are a temporary response to a stimulus that comes and goes, as well. This is how all things work...a constant steam of coming and going.

Again, if you can distance yourself somewhat and just see the flow, you will "understand" the nature of our being in a much healthier way. Once you attach, you are going to suffer when the object of your attachment is no longer. This is impermanence.

Not only do we not have complete knowledge, but we cannot [actually] understand anything. We just do not possess that capability. Once you realize that is not about understanding the inputs, you begin to concentrate on the outputs and this gives us the best chance of having the appropriate response.

IOW, people do what they do for an infinite number of reasons [their entire life experience] and there is no way we can understand that, but we can observe what they are doing and this way we can respond not with judgement, but instead, with compassion [clarity].

 

Your basic premise seems to be that we are fundamentally flawed. I have to ask, flawed compared to what, exactly? There's no sentient species we know of that manages to be successful, devoid of, or in total control of, individual feelings, intellectually able to understand the essence of the Universe (absolute truth or whatever you want to call it), and capable of creating and maintaining functioning societies. How would we even begin to compare ourselves to something that doesn't exist?

You surely know that an output can become an input, and an input can be the output of some other input. On what should we concentrate, then?

Empathy, not compassion.

There are ways to understand why people are doing certain things. This is what neurosciences, psychoanalysis, sociology, psychology, and philosophy are doing.