Article 1, Section 8 - Question for Conservatives

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by kicks, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    The preamble explains the goals the constitution is supposed to accomplish. It explains why the states chose to establish the constitution between themselves.

    It is article I, sec 8 that describes the powers that the states gave to congress, and the power to promote the general welfare is not among them.
     
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Those are not powers. It is a single power, namely to collect taxes. And that power is restricted, in that taxes may only be collected in order to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the states.
     
  3. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Did I miss something regarding "We the People"?

    Providing for the general welfare is specifically enumerated as delegated to our federal Congress; but should be considered a "virtue" of the People.
     
  4. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    No one is claiming the several States can't solve their own problems especially when establishing federal Standards.
     
  5. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    No, the states never delegated to congress the power to provide for the general welfare. Such a power is not listed in article I, section 8. The first clause in that section gives congress the power to collect taxes and grants no other power.
     
  6. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    That is not the issue at hand. The issue we are discussing is the federal government and it legitimate powers.
     
  7. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Providing for the general welfare of the United States is a specifically enumerated general power.

    In my opinion, a confusion may arise when people mistake a warfare-state for a welfare-state. Only one can provide for the general welfare since the other must make the hellish conditions of warfare on Earth true, for it to exist.
     
  8. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I agree with you that our federal Congress is only delegated the power to Tax, to Provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
     
  9. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    If what you claim of true of the clause enumerating the general welfare, then the same must be true of the enumeration of the common defense, since it is found alongside and in the same sentence.
     
  10. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    Let's look at the text. Here are the first three powers granted in article I, section 8:

    So we have three powers listed here. The first is the power to tax, and that power is a limited power because congress may not tax for any reason, but only to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the states.

    After this, we see two more powers, to borrow money and to regulate certain types of commerce.

    As you can see, there is no grant of power in these first three clauses, nor in any of the subsequent clauses in article I, section 8 that grant congress the power to provide for the general welfare.

    If you think such a grant exists, please point out the supporting text so that we can discuss it.

    You lost me on that one...
     
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. The same holds true for the common defense in that clause. It is one of the two things for which congress may collect taxes. In that clause, it is not to be taken as a grant of power to provide for the common defense.

    EDIT - Please note though that later on in section 8 there are several clauses that do grant congress powers related to common defense.
     
  12. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Why do you feel the need to quibble? The limitation or power to provide for the general welfare is enumerated as a condition of delegated authority or power, to raise taxes for that purpose; it is why it is only delegated to our federal Congress. The power to Tax and to Provide for the common defense and general welfare could just as easily be viewed as general powers delegated to our federal Congress and expressly enumerated as to what those tax monies are to be used for, even if through the coercive use of force or power of a State.
     
  13. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    "Aided by a little sophistry on the words "general welfare," [the federal branch claim] a right to do not only the acts to effect that which are specifically enumerated and permitted, but whatsoever they shall think or pretend will be for the general welfare."
    -Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1825. ME 16:147

    “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”
    -Benjamin Franklin

    “To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

    “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
    -Thomas Jefferson

    “A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.”
    -Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.” James Madison, “Letter to Edmund Pendleton,”
    -James Madison, January 21, 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol. 14, Robert A Rutland et. al., ed (Charlottesvile: University Press of Virginia,1984).
     
  14. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    We must first agree that the general welfare cannot also mean the general badfare nor the general warfare; and, that the common defense cannot mean the common offense. Do you agree with me on that?
     
  15. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    [​IMG]

    Republicans think it's just fine to 'help the poor', and clearly do so more than liberals. You prefer instead to give other people's money.

    As for Iraq: there was a resolution, passed by Congress - perfectly Constitutional. There was a cease fire, with terms agreed to by Saddam, which he then violated, thus causing a re-invasion. No further Congressional proxy was required.

    You may as well focus on starting to know things which are so, instead of filling your head with things that aren't.
     
  16. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Some liberals may believe that actually solving poverty is more "charitable" than any form of private charity could be, since private charity can never solve poverty on its own. In that same manner, simply waging a conservative War on Poverty is money worse spent than actually solving poverty through existing laws and existing infrastructure.
     
  17. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I think what you're misunderstanding is that it is not "the power to Tax and to Provide for the common defense and general welfare". Rather it is the power to tax in order to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the union. This first paragraph in section 8 gives congress one power (the power to tax), not two powers (the power to tax and the power to provide).
     
  18. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    This should be qualified to state that the States did not grant Congress the power to provide for the general welfare of the People. They did grant it the power to provide for the general welfare of the States and also enumerated the specific roles and responsibilities of the Congress in providing for that general welfare of the States. These are the "enumerated" powers of Article I Section 8 as well as powers expressly granted thoughout the rest of the Constitution. In some cases, in providing for the general welfare of the States, the Constitution also provides for the general welfare of the People. For example, providing for patent protections it benefits the States first by establishing a common criteria related to the protections of invention by the individual but it also provides a benefit to the individual that is granted a patent.

    We always come back the the point that those who argue that the federal government is responsible for the general welfare of the People are fundamentally claiming that the authors of the Constitution were not articulate in writing it and we know better. The "United States" are not the "People" and the US Constitution does not delegate authority to Congress to provide for the general welfare of the people. That is a responsibility of State government which was never delegated to the federal government in the Constitution.
     
  19. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I agree that they were referring to the states as states rather than the people at large. I also agree that they granted specific powers to congress that, as you point out, have the effect of promoting the general welfare, which is the aim of the document, as stated in the preamble.

    However, one important point is that there is no specific power granted to "provide for the general welfare", as some claim. Many claim that this specific power is granted here:
    However, this is only the grant of the power to tax. It grants the power to tax in order to provide for the general welfare of the states and for the common defense. It is NOT a grant of power to provide for the general welfare of the states. The reference to general welfare and common defense are simply restrictions on why taxes may be raised. Congress could not raise taxes, for example, to give to a single state, or a single group of individuals. Congress has the power to tax, in order to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the united states, and that is the only reason congress may tax.
     
  20. Foolardi

    Foolardi Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our Constitution was Written and Drafted by Great Men.Called our Founder's.
    Men of extreme thought,due dilligence and prudent scope.Tell us where our Founder's
    made mention of WELFARE.Or this Safety net bidness.It was F.D.R. and his New Deal
    that started that ball rolling.Then of course another Big Liberal Lug { L.B.J. }
    and his Great Society experimentation.Trillions spent and today's poor are poorer and
    less educated than in the late 60's.All that was accomplished was a Dependency mindset.
    The New Republican majority forced Bubba Clinton to see Welfare for what it was and
    forced him { he vetoed 3 times } to pass it.It was like pulling teeth.
    Yes,it is very Catholic to have a safety net.But NOT Welfare Wiches and virtual
    stipends for every child born out of wedlock.
    That is unethical,and for those who have to foot the bill ... the taxpayers ... indubitably unfair.
    Thanks F.D.R. and L.B.J. for yer Great Society approach.
    I can see where America and Americans are better off for it's being there.
    I mean,part of the political fabric.
    yeah ... that and a box of donuts is about what the Doctor ordered.
    Give us a break.
    Wise Up
     
  21. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    While I agree with you that our federal Congress is delegated the power to Tax, to Provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States, it could be said the scope of the power to Tax is qualified by the objects for which our tax monies may be used through the specifically enumerated general powers delegated to our federal Congress. I understand your claim that limiting our government to those objects specifically enumerated is only a limitation on the power to Tax. It is merely my contention that the specifically enumerated general powers are there for a reason, since it is also found along with the general power to pay the Debts.

    From a more practical perspective, the general powers to tax and provide for the common defense and general welfare should be considered specifically enumerated powers in our social Contract and federal Constitution, simply for disambiguation.
     
  22. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    And is far too sacred to be interpreted by us mere mortals. The Holy Document can only by interpreted by our Wise infallible Overlords and High Priests in Supreme shiny black robes, dully appointed by His Highness the great and fearless LEADER of the freeworld.

    Wise up
     
  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    It is not a power to tax AND provide for the common defense. It is a power to tax IN ORDER TO provide for the common defense.
     
  24. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a good thread. When I get a minute, I'll catch up and chime in.
     
  25. montra

    montra New Member

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    The answer is decentralization. Folks closer to home are more accessable and easier to keep tabs on and hold accountable.
     

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