Leo just proved that wrong. He cares which room that person uses, and is hypocritical enough to say so. He wants restroom use to be by sex unless they look too male for him, even if they are not trans men. However I think you meant to say that no one in the men's room cares who uses the men's room. That would be more accurate with how most men, even trans opponents, feel.
Hey, thanks for your post. A few points to address here. While the point of this thread is not to debate the validity of trans people, I would like to first point out that we are not asking to be identified and treated as the opposite sex, but rather our gender identity and presentation. Second, society has normalized people presenting as overtly feminine using the women’s restroom and people presenting overtly masculine using the men’s restroom. I can’t recall a time in history where we’ve checked people’s genitals or chromosomes at the door, so sex doesn’t seem to be the primary method of gate keeping access. Of course some people buck tradition. Some masculine people use the women’s room, some feminine people use the men’s room, but that’s true of cis and trans people alike. But let’s actually discuss the topic of the thread. Given what I’ve laid out in my opening post, how do these laws benefit anyone? Also, “tranny” is a slur. Given the content of your post I’m guessing you know that, but I figured it would be better to assume you’re not malicious and give you a heads up in case you feel like avoiding it in the future.
That is a good question. It seems to me that people usually want answers to such questions in a simple, one shot, fire and forget, legal format. I cannot offer that. What I can say is it would be pretty much just like it has always been with no laws at all.....EVERYONE around will decide, even the individual's own judgement will matter, but just not be the end of it. It will be a process of people learning their own place rather than underwear inspections. All that is really needed is a widely accepted rule and not even a law. Most people will obey, as they normally do. So Blair White would use the handicapped restrooms, and they should be available everywhere there are restrooms. Could Blair White sneak her johnson into the ladies without issue? Sure. But if a 6 foot 2, cro-magnon browed, individual with five o'clock shadow and a massive adam's apple in a dress tries that, multiple people are going to inform that person that they are in the wrong place. Most people will accept it rather than be hounded every time they use the lav. And those few that don't? They keep going to jail for disturbing the peace until they figure it out.
I’m not sure what your bathroom experiences look like, but I’ve never actually seen another person’s “plumbing” when using public bathrooms. How do you plan to enforce such a rule? Genital checks based on subjective beauty standards? I guarantee you’ll harm more cis women than trans people with such a plan. Again, it’s not about helping women. Instead it seems we’re okay with harming women if it means we can also harm a marginalized community.
So you agree that he’s a guy and you base that off of gender presentation rather than birth sex. Maybe you’re starting to get it…
What is your proposed method of confirming a person’s genitals if they’re suspected of being trans exactly? What ever it is, I guarantee it will negatively impact cis women far more than often than it will impact trans people based on percentage of population alone.
I am willing to bet most women will disagree about if this is about helping women or not. I may not be a woman, but I bet they judge everyone that walks into the ladies room, and everyone who walks in knows they are being judged and if they got a yea or a nay. Those who keep getting nay need to simply cease and desist. And those that don't can be dealt with. No genital inspection even necessary. Once again, handicapped areas are the easy answer.
Children are not undergoing SRS outside of very rare and extreme cases. Mental health professionals, of which I assume you are not, have come to the conclusion that transition is the most efficacious treatment for gender dysphoria. This is based on rigorous research and overwhelmingly positive outcomes for patients. Gender identity change efforts (GICE) have proven to be overwhelming harmful to those who have undergone it. Facts are not on your side here.
Manly cis women are already being judged and negatively affected by the judgement. People know the contents of their own underwear and most act accordingly. The judgements of others to everything else also matters though, and the individual can suss out the answer to that too....and act accordingly. Neither the men's nor the ladies' check out? Handicapped restroom. Every place should be required to have one.
Again, I guarantee your proposal will harm more cis women than trans. Every time. You’re basing whether people should be accosted and arrested based on subjective beauty standards. The best approach is to allow people to use the restroom that aligns with their gender identity. The vast majority of people will self regulate and use the facilities that make sense for them. I’m a trans woman. I use the men’s room because I’m still quite early in my transition. I don’t feel like being accosted. Eventually I’ll use the women’s facilities when that becomes a safer place for me to be. You act like every trans person wants to shove their genitals in everyone’s face. The vast majority of us just want to be safe and unmolested by people with nothing better to do than make other people’s lives more difficult.
Given that a majority of cis women support self identification for trans people, I would caution you on making that bet. Might cis women “clock” a trans woman in the bathroom, sure. The majority don’t seem to agree that it’s a problem though. Forcing trans people into handicapped or family facilities puts undue burden on trans people as many public spaces don’t offer those, or undue burden on public spaces to make costly accommodations. As per usual, the plan that makes the most sense is to just mind your own business and stop worrying about what other people have going on in their pants.
That's not fair. I offered the option of the handicapped restroom before any accosting or arrest would occur. And NO, this is not a "beauty standard". Judging gender by visual clues it other than genitals is as common as rain and has been since clothing became common. In fact, no one is actually worried about actual trans people. But how can WE tell who is an actual trans person and who is a faker??? You figure that one out and you will have another valid solution to the problem.
Right. No one cares. People to there to take care of their needs, not to examine other people. As a matter of fact, you are expected to keep your eyes to yourself around the urinals, and of course the person in question would not be able to use the urinal anyway, so who cares. Only the basement dwelling Gen-Z maga republicans care and even they only because they are being told to care. Who walks into a bathroom is a big deal for them.
True, cis women that do not fit the rigid beauty standards of what makes a person a woman are negatively impacted by the current trans hysteria in our country. Bathroom bills threaten to put them in further jeopardy. That’s the point of this thread. Your answer is that every public space be forced to construct gender neutral facilities in order to be public spaces? You realize that’s an insane burden to put on businesses to address a non-issue, right?
To be honest, I think the minority view matters in this case. Restrooms are a necessity for everyone. Filling even a minority with anxiety about them is not right. Of course, I don't see where you get your information on the majority view though.
I think its been that way since long before the hysteria. Yes, I do admit there is a hysteria. Even so, fakers are real.
What is your proposed response to the majority of public spaces not offering gender neutral bathrooms? Shut them down until they’re in compliance, or are trans people just left to hold it? The self ID model is the most effective way to identify if someone is trans. If you want to know the answer, ask; though that might be seen as rude. How does identifying if someone is actually trans address the problem?
It comes from this survey: The poll revealed that 57% of cis women surveyed believe that trans people should have the right to self-identify their own gender identity, compared with 43% of cis men. https://www.them.us/story/a-majorit...The poll revealed that 57,with 44% of cis men. Every person’s view matters, but as to whether it should dictate policy is a different story. I feel for any person that is uncomfortable using a public bathroom, but if the reason for that discomfort is that you have to share it with people you don’t like… Well I’m sorry. Your right to feel comfortable stops at my right to exist safely.
So let’s say fakers are a significant issue. Wouldn’t you agree these bathroom bills make it easier for fakers to act on their malicious intentions? Are you at least agreeing that these bathroom bills don’t make sense? If we accept that, doesn’t presentation and self regulation make more sense? And if we accept that, shouldn’t people just use the facilities that align with their gender identity and people should just mind their own business?
I think the answers will change if the question is directly about restrooms rather than individual psychology though. Thanks for the information.
Well, I cant say I am familiar enough with contents of the bills. But every time this discusson comes up, I don't see anything about handicapped restrooms. Since I think that is the answer, I don't bother with reading the actual laws that no one says contains such an idea. What I am hearing about them makes them seem rather simple minded, that I admit. I don't think public regulation is going to disappear. If a questionable person goes in the restroom after some guy's daughter went in, there is liable to be a ruckus.
That still ends up requiring major renovation in order for many public spaces to be in compliance. Let’s take a target or Walmart for instance. Large open bays with individual stalls. What’s the answer? These businesses need to build new gender neutral facilities to be in compliance? You see how that’s silly, yes?
Not finding surveys on the topic one way or the other. Possibly understudied. Theres potential that opinions could shift given a different context, but I’m not seeing evidence for it being likely. I’ll present anything I find on a deeper look.
I’ve already pointed out why unisex facilities are not the answer you think they are. Maybe you’re from a different part of the world where they are common, but that’s not the case in the states. These bills simply state that if you’re born male you use the men’s room. If you’re born female you use the women’s room. Really need you to engage with the topic instead of deflecting to alternatives. If you want to talk about mandating the existence of gender neutral facilities in all public spaces, that’s a different discussion. Thanks for at least admitting these laws don’t make sense. Progress, I guess. You would agree that’s bad though, right? A person doesn’t have the right to accost someone for entering a bathroom just because they don’t like the way they look, right? If a parent is uncomfortable with their child independently using a public restroom, they can bring them into the facility that matches their gender. It’s rather common practice.
