Biden doing exactly what Trump said he would do regarding Chinese cars.

Any work. EVs suck at work. They inherently instantly go to full torque. If there's any load on the vehicle it just sucks the battery dry faster. Electric motors are great in industrial applications where they are connected to the grid, but without the constant feed of the grid, they're epically inferior.

An ICE powertrain doesn't automatically go to full torque if it's not required. Therefore it isn't wasting fuel and drawing down the tank unnecessarily. And refueling is easy and can be done anywhere, not just where charging stations are.

EVs are rich kids toys. ICE moves, and will continue to move, the country.

 

looks like it is you trying to derail the thread to me

I remember the left being thankful Trump finally got the right to support Tariffs

 

As is often the case with you, you are declaring a fact when there are no facts in evidence. I would say the best evidence we have that EV's are not the functional and cost equivalent of ICE vehicles is that they are not competitive with them. Consumers are not that interested.

Again, nothing to do with the topic. How do you feel about tariff's on Chinese made EV's?

 

Tariffs are good. They help American manufacturers be more competitive and motivate the return from overseas of products that can be manufactured domestically. Prices do rise on imports, of course, but nobody is forced to buy imports.

 

Again, nothing to do with the topic. How do you feel about tariff's on Chinese made EV's?[/QUOTE]
In the USA, the only car that had more sales than the Tesla Y was the Toyota Rav 4.

The Tesla Y was the world's highest selling car in 2023.

US manufacturers of ICE cars are having an increasingly difficult time with sales outside of the USA. Exports are decreasing.

Yet, YOU claim there is little interest in EVs?

We already favor US made EVs vs. foreign manufacturing by denying rebates for cars where significant parts or the whole car are not made in the USA.

That has not proven to be enough to help legacy manufacturers to create competitive EVs.

This presents a risk for US auto manufacturing given that the move toward EVs continues.

Would tariffs make a difference? I'm not really so sure. I think US auto would need to get excited and make other changes. So far, China is advancing with a serious purpose to be the world's car provider, and they are challenging even Tesla with seriously good vehicles.

 

So as far as the topic goes, you are "not really so sure" that tariff's would be a good thing to keep Chinese and Chinese company made EV's out of the US.

OK.

 

Well...

What is the justification for the effort to block Chinese cars from being sold in America? There may be reasons, but let's be clear.

Trump seems to think it is Big Oil, thus offering to kill EVs for a $1Billion dollar campaign contribution from fossil fuel. After all, 60% of our oil consumption goes to transportation. So, more EVs means less money to big oil. But, they can sell internationally as they do today.

Is this a good reason for tariffs? I absolutely do NOT agree. We're not here to make oil companies more wealthy by blocking consumer choice.

Others want to protect our auto industry, because they think our auto industry needs time to compete. But, the rebates on EVs have not caused our auto industry to make competitive EVs. And, they have other serious problems, like the fact that it is illegal for them to sell direct to customers! Thus, dealerships have them in a neck hold. Ford's CEO says this is a very serious problem.

Will tariffs slow Chinese EVs enough that US auto will catch up?

I have my doubts.

So, I don't see tariffs being very useful.


Do you see a reason for tariffs that could be important?

 

I don't recall Trump mentioning big oil in his "bloodbath" speech so you'll have update me with a quote on that, but as far as tariffs go, apparently the President disagrees...finally.

Joe Biden will double, triple and quadruple tariffs on some Chinese goods, with EV duties jumping to 102.5% from 27.5

President Joe Biden will double, triple and quadruple tariffs on some Chinese goods this week, unveiling the measures at a White House event framed as a defense of American workers, people familiar with the matter say.

Biden will hike or add tariffs in key sectors after nearly two years of review. The total tariff on Chinese electric vehicles will rise to 102.5% from 27.5%, the people said, speaking on condition of anonymity ahead of the announcement. Others will double or triple in targeted industries, though the scope remains unclear.

Biden and his staff spent recent weeks finalizing the measures, including which items to hit and which to avoid because the inputs are needed to fuel American growth, one of the people said. The final decision was a consensus, the person said.

As far as you not seeing tariffs as being very useful, I think we made a massive strategic mistake in opening are markets to China in the 90's. They've destroyed entire industries and communities and have helped to deindustrialize the country. And the fact that we did this with China of all countries...

It's the historical equivalent of FDR deciding in the 1930's that the US would benefit from becoming dependent on the Axis powers for food and fuel.

I think we need to reverse that policy and tariffs are a good way to start.

 

What's the objective? Do you know?

I really do not believe that protectionism works. There are uses for tariffs. But we live in a world market. Trying to cut ourselves off from the rest of the world is not a valid way forward.

As for manufacturing, most manufacturing can be done anywhere. We're better off economically because we trade with China.

 

The objective seems obvious. It's to save what are usually referred to as "good jobs."

I think one of the big lessons of the last 20 years is that we're not better off economically because we trade with China. Some people are better off sure, but many more are worse off. But beyond simply the economics of it is that China regards us as an enemy and seems clearly to be engaged in a cold war with us. It makes no sense to become economically dependent on a nation that regards us as an enemy.

 

Biden's objective is to prevent China from owning the clean energy future.

He's using tariffs to give more time for the USA to catch up with China.

China's BYD and some others are good competitive cars, and China is way ahead of the USA in clean energy patents, manufacturing, exports and installation. Their batteries are years ahead. Their cars are invading everywhere, except the USA, maybe.

Their EVs are ahead of the US in all cases except Tesla. Tesla is impacted by these tariffs, too, as it limits their exports of cars built in their factory in China, so the newest Teslas from China show up in Canada.

The Biden plan might help if the USA gets serious about clean energy. It might allow the US to compete with China, at least in some sectors. But, the USA would need to get in high gear on all these factors.

Do you think the US will make the effort required to catch up with China in clean energy?

 

Wait I thought you were opposed to tariffs, now you are on board? I'm confused by this change. You literally just said you don't believe that protectionism works, and now you are all for it?

You must know how this looks to me. You had some ideas about economics, they clashed with a new Biden policy, so you reprogrammed yourself to love big brother and support the Biden policy.

 

You do realize that this shouldn’t be surprising. Trump is a liberal and reciprocal tariffs are something liberals have pushed for decades, whereas free trade with minimal tariffs is something conservatives normally would push.

Supporting articles
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.go...-congress-united-states-reciprocal-trade-act/

And here is a democrat article from as far back as 1980
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/1980-democratic-party-platform

Really, teriffs have a long history in both parties but the liberal side usually is the side that pushed it. Tariffs began under progressive republicans and were opposed by conservative democrats. When democrats became more progressive they too started supporting teriffs. Likewise when republicans became more conservative they started to oppose them (my personal stance). If you want a decent historical read on tariff history in the US you should read this.

https://constitutioncenter.org/amp/blog/donald-trump-and-the-history-of-tariffs-and-trade

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, Trump is a liberal.

 

REad my post. I did not say I'm on board with this Biden plan.

I pointed out what the objective was.

And, what that plan requires is for US manufacturers to jump in and try to be competitive.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY WILL DO THAT. There are sound reasons for that being too hard for them.

I'm pretty much ready to cut rebates (what were designed for this purpose, too) and stop all this anti-China nonsene.

It's time for auto manufacturers to compete or fail without out OUR tax payer dollars and our legacy auto demands to twist our economy and our strongly justifiable objectives.

 

Let’s be for real… at a time of inflation, tariffs are a horrible idea. Completely moronic. Has anyone seen the cost of vehicles lately? How do you think this will influence those costs?

 

I think cutting red tape would bring down costs far more than teriffs, but that’s not their goal (to bring down costs), their goal is simple competition. Bring their prices higher so ours compete.

Regulation from mileage requirements, to black boxes, to even safety features add a lot of cost to vehicles. Then labor unions on top of that make us not competitive.

 

You made up what you think the objective is; trying to prevent China from owning the "clean energy future."

So now you are saying you oppose Biden's tariffs? I'm trying to keep up with your changing positions.

 

US manufacturers were and continue to be very competitive in ICE vehicles that people actually want.

But the whole market, and probably much of the economy, craters when the government forces them to make EVs that almost nobody wants.

Government run markets have a really bad historical record.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/14/business/dealbook/biden-trade-war-tariffs-china.html

Biden is targeting specific sectors that he believes need protection - areas where the US needs to become competitive.

I just don't believe these particular targets are going to be meaningful to America becoming more competitive. Further, I'm not so sure that rebates are going to help let US auto be more competitive, either. Legacy auto is losing FAR FAR more than a mere rebate on every car they sell.

I've found that every ICE manufacturer in the USA is a member of more than one organization that is working to defeat EVs, clean energy, ICE emissions regulation and battery technology.

Plus, big oil is working in that direction, too.

Giving them some room to try to catch up is POINTLESS if that's their intent.

So, perhaps we should stop trying to focus our dollars on those who actively oppose our clear future for their own benefit.

When it seemed like US auto/Toyota/Stellantis/etc. were going to work to be competitive with China, I favored helping them.

Now that it seems clear that they are not, I'm leaning toward more of a "screw them", and start welcoming imports of those products Americans are unwilling to build.


Yes, that's a recent change.

 

ICE manufacturing craters when they spend billions on creating crappy EVs using inefficient methods to both build and sell them.

Then, they join consortiums oriented to demanding that they get to emit ICE chemicals in our neighborhoods.

They have to become competitive or they have to quit and leave it to others, such as China. Free market competition.

 

There's nothing "free market competition" about EVs. If there was, they'd get rid of the regulations that force building them.

But that should end in a few weeks.

 

Heh, even on what might be considered heterodox positions we find ourselves on opposite sides.

That strikes me as amusing for some reason.

 

What regulation do you hate the most?

 

So, what's your disagreement?