Biden doing exactly what Trump said he would do regarding Chinese cars.

I do think that's the purpose of the tariffs. And, I think it will fail, as ICE manufacturers aren't interested in being competitive in EVs.

Mileage regs are for emissions reduction.

Tesla is among or the best at safety - excelling in crash tests, visibility for the driver, driving aids, etc.

They are dropping in price to be competitive with quality ICE cars. Future drops are assured as the cost of manufacturing goes down, especially with falling battery prices - the most expensive component.

 

Multiple.

Clean energy as you define it is much further away than you think.

ICE is going to be around, of necessity, much longer than you think.

You think China really cares about a "clean energy future"

You think we've benefited from open trade with China, and I think it's been a disaster.

 

Solar panels plus a battery can make you free of the grid. In fact, you can get paid by the grid. It's not free, but it is well worth the cost if you plan to stay around, or if you make that part of your new home mortgage.

China leads in these components.

I'm not arguing about how long ICE will remain.

China absolutely DOES care about a clean energy future. There is no question of that. But, that's not the point. They are working to be the world's supplier of cars, and those cars will be electric, as they want in China.

I'm talking about this tariff plan. Let's not muddy it up with some sweeping economic argument. For cars and clean energy equipment, China is leading the world - except for Tesla. Adding tariffs to give time for some US industry might be fine. But, there is no competition growing in the USA. Our car industry (our legacy manufacturing plus Toyota) HATES EVs. And, we aren't winning at solar panels, batteries, etc.

The number 2 in the world is Germany.

We're just shooting ourselves in the foot to PRETEND we're protecting car companies when they aren't interested in making EVs, etc., etc.

 

Tesla keeps dumping it's staff. I don't think they're long for this world

to get Americans to buy them they need to be below standard Vehicles because they're lesser. The technique spot them they all have them that's it.

 

The Tesla Y was the best selling car in the world in 2023.

They are one of the very few EV manufacturers who make money on the cars they sell.

Musk believes the big play will be for driverless ride services where the number of cars sold will be correlated with the number of rides people want.

Think Lyft with no steering wheel or pedals. And, no labor cost.

 

that doesn't mean very much. It's not enough to keep the staff employed apparently.

so in your mind getting rid of a good portion of your staff is just something you do when times are good?

he's an idiot. He also thinks he's going to have a manned mission to Mars to do 4 years ago.

They're already are driverless ride services it's called the ****ing bus. Someone figured it out 70 years before Elon Musk was born.

when I think that I think the first three people that get killed and one of these will sue Elon Musk into Oblivion. That is whatever money he didn't lose buying Twitter.

If you're staking the future of this on a flimflam man you have less hope in it than I do.

 

So... you oppose tariffs because you want easy, cheap access to Chinese EV technology and to punish US auto manufacturers who hate them because of some unknown reason?

Well it's a reason I suppose.

 

Free market enterprise is a good idea, in general.

I somewhat expect Chinese vehicles to make it into the US anyway, as companies like Volvo could be purchased and then we're importing Volvos.

MG was purchased, and they sell Chinese EVs under that name.

Maybe the possibility of competition would inspire our manufacturing!

As for solar panels, that is an important source of energy. Making that expensive or restricted to US or German technology would be seriously disappointing.

Also, the world's leading EV batteries come from CATL and BYD. CATL batteries will be built in America under contracts that allow use of patented technology. Tesla is doing that. Ford WAS going to do that, but they canceled. This is a big deal, because of the importance of battery technology. CATL is on the forefront with batteries that are substantially lighter, cheaper, faster to charge and support longer mileage and life - basically everything one wants. It's suspected that the Tesla Y refresh that is coming is essentially waiting on superior batteries.

Ford says they are hamstrung by dealership law, as it is illegal to sell direct to customers and dealerships don't want to sell EVs. Other legacy brands have the same problem. Dealerships make significant revenue from maintenance, and EVs need little to no maintenance.

Will US legacy manufacturers (and those like Toyota) catch up in the EV market? Japanese companies have hated EVs. They still talk hydrogen - which is hideously expensive and made by superheating oil until the hydrogen pops out - obviously heavily fossil fuel. And, there are no fueling stations to speak of.

 

So what I'm gathering is that you oppose the Biden move. I'm betting that after the election things will go back to normal and you'll get your way (assuming Biden wins).

 

I haven't heard many defend this Biden move.

Tesla says this is likely to cause them to be unable to use batteries that they had lined up for the Tesla Y refresh - to give longer distance and faster charging, AND cost less.

Let's say that's true. What would that benefit?

Who would benefit from making home solar worse or a lot more expensive?

I'd like to hear from someone besides the White House make an argument in favor of this move.

 

Ok - what do YOU think of Biden's tariffs - that is what it might accomplish for America?

 

Well I'm defending the Biden move for reasons I've already stated in this thread. He didn't make this decision because it would be unpopular. I suspect it will have a lot of popular support.

 

in favor

 

Well, I'm asking what you believe it will accomplish.

 

The bare minimum; keeping Chinese made EV's out of the US (I'm unconcerned about the solar panels and whatnot). Obviously it doesn't go far enough but it's a good start.

 

I view the tariffs on batteries and solar cells as the worst. I'm fine with no Chinese cars for now, but over all I do believe China will be the big dog in cars world wide.

Batteries help solve real energy issues.

I would think that there are a lot of right wingers who would like to be free of the government run electricity grid. That's pretty easy with good solar cells and house batteries.

Also, industrial batteries solve issues with spot price for power, saving tens of millions of dollars a year.

Maybe you like the USA having worse EVs by making laws that require technologically inferior batteries, but there is NOTHING good for America in that.

 

Only if EVs continue to be mandated and subsidized by the government.

Let them compete in a fair market with ICE and all the problems with Chinese EVs go away.

 

Huh? No, I'm not demanding technologically inferior products.

As far as home solar cells go, I live in Florida and we have a salesman knocking on the door at least once a week trying to sell solar panels. However having an acquaintance who actually did that, it's not a great deal. It's massively expensive to the point that it would take decades to recoup your money, and of course it can void your roof warranty and home insurance coverage.

In other words, the technology is just not there for common use. But I encourage early adopters such as yourself to go ahead and get them.

 

The ironic thing is that both Trump AND Biden are taking the entirely wrong, old-school approach to 'other people' who actually do BUILD A BETTER MOUSETRAP!

The Chinese come up with cars as good as ours (or anyone else's), at far less price, and which have innovations like quick "R&R" ('removal-and-replacement') of EV batteries at special EV exchange-stations (instead of "filling stations"). You're in and out in the same time it takes to fill a car with liquid fuel!

But instead of improving our own methodologies and rolling out even better ones than the Chinese (or other competitors), we go down the road of slapping on tariffs on systems that are far more innovative and intelligent! But both Democrats and Republicans want to pander after those labor union votes....

And the hilarious thing is that once these tariffs hit everything in the supply-chain that has steel, semiconductors, and other essential things, when Mr. and Ms. Middle Class head to the hardware store or to Walmart, they'll have an even worse shock coming than they've already had for the last two years!

Oh, and it won't stop there. Dozens of different businesses and corporations will have to raise prices even though they'll only be on the periphery of the direct effect of the tariffs. And remember -- the only realistic choice we have is between 'Twiddle-Dumb' (Donnie) and 'Twiddle-Dumber' ('Big Guy' Biden).

. "You're BOTH so full of ****!"

 

I don't think that's true.

 

You still haven't stated what you believe these tariffs will do for Americans.

 

I think I have.

 

Good post.

I disagree with your R&R idea, as battery packs will continue to advance rapidly in China where battery progress has been fastest.

In the end, there can't be enough stations with a supply of all the various battery packs that different brands and sizes of vehicles will use. The one commonality will be that of plugging in.

But, that still points to the fact that batteries are moving ahead rapidly in all the dimensions that car buyers demand.

Plus, these are the same batteries that are used in the industrial battery facilities that help modulate the grid - reducing the super high cost of spot power.

It also means that the US EV manufacturers CAN'T be as good as China, because battery technology is so majorly important to distance, weight, charge speed, life of the battery, etc.

By cutting the US off from good batteries, we are damning the US EV market to be worse forever AND kicking our clean energy direction directly in the crotch.

 

How is the US consumer helped by keeping Chinese EVs out of the US?

 

Some US workers are helped and US industry are helped.

It's clear that we view the past 30 years of opening our markets to China differently. I view it as an unmitigated disaster and you seem to like it, so we're not going to find any agreement here I suppose.