Cause and Effect Is NOT Understanding

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by impermanence, Feb 23, 2023.

  1. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How so? Understanding takes place in your mind. I might not know anything about reality but still have perfect access to my understanding of things.

    Well, I wasn't asking you what is "worth looking into", I am interested in whether we can have confidence in its results.

    I am interested in finding various wisdoms and truths. However, there is a lot of claimed truths and wisdoms out there and I'm not so interested in learning misguided things, so the central point to begin with is going to have to be how we know that it is right.

    I'd say ignorance is even simpler than truth. It's like truth, but doesn't have the extra burden of having reliability or having to conform to systems with several moving parts. If I ask "what's the square root of 169", 0 is a very simple answer, but it is not right.

    Ok, this is your claim (yet again), what makes you think that is what "true understanding" is?
     
  2. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Reality and understanding are one and the same. As it has been said, it's not what you know that's important, but instead what you know you cannot know.

    Your understanding of things changes every moment as the inputs which creates these things change. The rate of change for all things simply overwhelms your brain's potential to keep up and therefore what you do "understand" is an incredibly simplified version of a reality [where each part exists in a different time]. Our realities are enough to get us by to some degree but they are not worth much more. So it's not that people are crazy, it's just that most do not cope well with this situation. :)

    How does one develop confidence if it is not through examination?

    You [like most folks] want somebody to just tell you what it is. You want me to say, "Swensson, THIS is what it is!" No can do.

    Everybody is on their own path...on their own journey and it is only YOU who can find the Truth for you. Listen to what I am saying though. Be open.

    Ignorance is the lack of truth. [/quote]

    It is the intellect that makes things complex. It is adding idea upon idea until you have a great pile of ideas and little else. The truth is very simple. Faith. Freedom. Love. Virtue. Commitment. One word is all that's necessary. All things are like this.

    With absolute Truth, eliminate the word. Gaze at your newborn son or daughter for the first time. This is absolute Truth!

    Because it works for me. It's the way you always know. If you are on the correct path, you know it because you feel better, you feel lighter, people are drawn to you because your energy is very positive.
     
  3. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Disagree. Understanding takes place in my mind, reality takes place outside it.

    Again, you seem not to be reading what I'm writing. A simplified and stylised "understanding" is better and more to the point than whatever changes and details you're fawning after.

    Through well-reasoned examination. Your position is still suspiciously similar to what it would be if it was simply made up.

    Nope, you keep telling me what you think is, and it has been unimpressive so far. I want you to tell me how you gain your confidence, so that I can assess whether I think it is any good. So far, wherever there is detail in your method, it has been unreliable.

    I'm giving you every opportunity to show me something worth visiting on my path. I am trying to listen, but you haven't told me the parts of your method that are important.

    Sure, but it can still be simple. So your reverence for simplicity can still lead you to ignorance. The only methods I know of avoiding ignorance, you seem to have rejected.

    Again, this seems like more claims that don't answer my concerns. 0 is simpler than 13, but is still the wrong answer to the question. Gazing at your newborn is great and all, but we're not missing the fact that you're not answering my concern.

    That sounds much more like a path to blissful ignorance to me. Why don't you tell me why you think feeling good about it means that you're right?
     
  4. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again, there are two types of reality; personal [perceptual] reality and actual Reality [of which we have no access].

    I understand what you are saying. I agree that our understanding is what it is, but this doesn't mean that you stop there. Understanding what lies beyond allows a different perspective. It like comparing somebody who is 50 yo v someone who is 15 yo. Different perspectives.

    Everything intellectual is "made-up," or do you bring us the words directly from the Ultimate Authority?

    How does anybody gain confidence...through experience. For whatever you do professionally, if you had a apprentice and he asked you, "Oh great one with decades of experience, tell me exactly what you do and how you do so I might go out tomorrow and do the same." You would laugh in this person's face. Real learning comes only through direct experience.

    Your kindness knows no bounds! :)

    It is YOU who must feel visiting your path is worthwhile, not me. My method is meditation. You would like to know what parts of it are important? You are going to have to be more specific but I will tell you that this path unfolds like life itself. It's one step at a time, although sometimes three steps forward and two steps back. Essentially you are partaking in the process of learning who you are. Meditation was taught by the historical Buddha because he believed that pain was our greatest teacher [sitting meditations causes a fair amount of discomfort initially]. The nature of human pain is essential to be intimately understood.

    There are all kinds of aspects to meditation but the goal is the stilling of the mind [allowing things to come and go without attachment]. It is the attachment [and subsequent loss] of things [good or bad] that causes suffering. If you can stay present and not allow your mind to wander to the past or speculate on the future...this is where and how you cultivate wisdom.

    But these are just words and this is not what it actually is. What it actually is can only be experienced through putting in the hours, days, weeks, months, years, and decades it takes for most to make significant progress down their path. This is a lifetime commitment that few are willing to make, although even one second of meditation is better than none at all.

    Most people believe I am fairly intelligent as I have studied at some depth a great number of subjects, but I tell those who suggest this that although it is what you know that makes you intelligent, it is what you cannot know which gives you wisdom [seeing the truth of the matter].

    It is only our feeble intellect that makes simple matters complex. Imagine believing that actual Reality is like a complex mathematical equation! How silly.

    You believe that I can answer your concerns? :) You need to do your own work. No shortcuts.

    How do you know when you are on the right track? What tells you that what you are doing is good?

    Most people consumed with intellectualism [like yourself] cannot fathom a different way. It makes no sense at all to you, I get it. But there must be doubt if you are willing to have this conversation. Look further into that doubt and perhaps you can see a photon or two and begin the climb out of the hole of intellectual despair [very poetic, no :].
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are major differences in searching for comfort and searching for truth.

    We see that every day.
     
  6. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If it is the Truth you are looking for, then you must be willing to give up your assumptions [as it is those ideas you hold onto for dear life which provide the main impediment to moving towards your stated goal].

    OTOH, if it is simply the truth [the latest and greatest idea of how things are/should be] you long after, you will find an unlimited supply available...everywhere...and forever [with free overnight delivery from Amazon Prime].

    Those searching for comfort are SOL.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, you want there to be two totally different "truth" ideas, one of which can not be addressed by humans.

    I'm talking about the one that CAN be addressed by humans.

    Those things that humans can NOT address shouldn't be subtracting from people's short time on Earth.
     
  8. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Then you have an unlimited choice. The truth changes every moment [as the inputs that make it up change every moment]. Multiply that by infinity and there go!
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's a radical idea. You need to cite evidence.
     
  10. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not really. How do you think things change?
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, not things. You claim that truth changes.

    Your whole thesis here is that what we learn about our universe is worthless crap.
     
  12. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's a bit harsh, but you've got the right idea.

    Truth is a thing. As a matter of fact, it's an infinite number of things [that go to compose it]. All of these things change every moment. So the sum total is different every moment. Make sense?
     
  13. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Disagree, there is one reality, your perception of it is not reality. We have plenty of access to reality, but it is not reliable or necessarily representable. When we look at a thing, we get information from reality. We may not interpret it correctly, like when we see an illusion, but there is flow of information.

    My entire point is that what you describe as understanding and what the rest of us mean by understanding are not the same thing. For a person to understand something, they need to have a decent grasp of which perspective they're using, and what other perspectives are possible.

    Sure, everything intellectual is made up, but well-reasoned intellectual things are not "simply" made up, they are made up, vetted, justified, put into context etc. Believing that 1+1=3 would not be a very intellectual move, even if it is made up.

    I'm not saying that you can learn everything quickly, but the apprentice came to me with a specific question, then I would be able to provide the answer, as well as details on how I came to that conclusion, and how I ruled out other explanations. If I just waved my hands and appealed to "experience", I would be a terrible teacher.

    I'm not asking you to tell me which parts are important or where I'm going to aim my life, I'm asking you what makes you think the claims you derive from meditation are reliable.

    I'm sure by now you could predict what my answer is going to be. What makes you think that what you cultivate is wisdom? Seems to me you have no way of telling whether it is wisdom or ignorance. We could really both save a lot of screen ink if you just answered the question instead of creating new claims over and over that all have the same flaw.

    Well, I do in fact believe that you have a grave misunderstanding of what the word "understanding" means, but it would be presumptuous and maybe even dishonest to just proclaim that without giving you an opportunity to explain how you mean it.

    My question is specifically about what thinking you went through, so you should be able to answer them, unless your thought process has holes in it.

    Depends on the context. Certainly comparing other possible (or impossible) actions/explanations is a part of it. Running my assumptions and conclusions through some sanity checks is also part of it.

    No, I see plenty of use for things outside of intellectualism. Art, creativity, human interactions, calm, emotion, morals, story telling, humour, purpose, etc etc are all perfectly valid things for their purposes. That being said, I deliberately picked a question which is sufficiently and efficiently addressed by the intellect.

    My main takeaway from your OP is that when you talk about understanding, you seem to be talking about something quite different to what everyone else is talking about. This is an issue that can be well discussed using the intellect.
     
    WillReadmore likes this.
  14. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In the spiritual world, it is common to have two terms for reality. It makes sense to me because it implies that everybody has their own reality.

    I don't know about everybody else, but I take your point. Again, in the spiritual world, people use "understanding" for the intellectual and "realization" for the non-intellectual. I am at error on occasion when I do not keep to this practice. My apologies.

    Realization is generally used to mean that you know something but cannot put it in words [intellectualize], again, like falling in love, or feeling the grief of losing a loved one, etc.

    You bring up a great point[perspectives], which is why communicating accurately is so very difficult.

    True, but that doesn't mean they hold any truth. Let's modify your example to 1+1=2. Most would readily agree to this equation but consider the following...

    If you would agree that each object in the Universe occupies an unique 3D space and is therefore the recipient of unique cosmic forces, then you might agree that [technically] each and every object in the Universe is unique. No two objects are the same. If this is the case [which I believe it true] then what does "2" mean [or any other number than 1]?

    So when you say "justified," it kind of depends on who's doing the justifying. And besides, why place those kinds of constraints? Reality suggests that all things are possible.



    I m not saying that teaching with words is not valuable but the most effective method of teaching is by example, no? But even this can only point the way, so the student must take your teaching and then learn through his own experience.

    For example, as much as young men think about girls and sex, it really doesn't matter a whole lot because one's first encounter on that front is going to teach quickly that you are going to have to learn like everybody else, through experience.

    The incredible improvement in everything you do in life. It is like acquiring any great skill. If you study auto mechanics for several years, how do you know that this is a good thing? The fact that you can service your own car or the cars of friends. Meditation is a skill that allows you to see things more clearly, nothing more. If you see things more clearly, not only can you interpret what's going on more accurately, but you can also tailor your responses more precisely, as well. Nothing complicated. Very simple.

    Spiritual wisdom is simply seeing things are clearly as possible. Again, this allows you to respond most appropriately. When you think about it, what else could wisdom be?

    As I mentioned, I went through a super-intensive philosophical period where I read non-stop for about 5 years. I could not find the answers I was looking for and had completely exhausted myself intellectually. That is, I reached [what I felt were] the limits of my understanding. This process prepared me for my Zen journey. For me, meditation "made sense" immediately. Some people go down this path and it never makes sense to them because they still feel as if they can figure it out.

    Because of the limits of the human intellect as well as other issues [perception, time, and who knows what else], understanding can only get you so far. We all know this. There is something beyond understanding. Let's call it realization. Although nobody can understand what it is, it allows those who tap into it to "sense" or interact with the world in a different way.

    How do you discuss the non-intellectual intellectually?

    Almost all people find the writings of Zen masters to be incredibly cryptic. They are writing in a way where it only "makes sense" if you are not trying to "understand" them. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?," for example. There is only ONE lesson in Zen. Meditation. IOW, the answers to all questions are found through realization...of who you are...of where you came from...and where you are going. This cannot be found through intellectual understanding. If it could be, it would have been thousands of years ago.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2023
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Physics includes how change happens over time.

    I don't accept you claims about what is intellectual and what is not intellectual. Topics of religion and physics can be addressed with reasoning and objective understanding, with intelligence.

    Your, "How do you discuss the non-intellectual intellectually?" is a strong indication that your definitions just don't work.
     
  16. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Instead of being dismissive, would it be more interesting to find out more about this sort of thing? The non-intellectual does not make sense intellectually, I get that. It would be like telling you that people in Spain speak a different language and you telling me that it is impossible because I cannot understand this other language.

    This type of thinking has been going on for thousands of years. The spiritual world has been around forever because it meets human needs that the intellect cannot.
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, it sounds to me more like you suggesting that those in Spain aren't using their intellect.

    Or, more specifically that physicists are failing in intelligence even though many physicists are religious.

    You are trying to make points by declaring different definitions for key words.
     
  18. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,101
    Likes Received:
    6,787
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes there is. If a tree grows in the woods is it real? Does it not grow in accordance with nature?
     
  19. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What's wrong with that?
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Words are useful when they have broadly accepted definitions.
     
  21. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are quite conservative in your approach to language.
     
  22. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why does it matter?
     
  23. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In the modern West, it's the only determinant that ever matters, that is, is "it" in the interests of the corporate-state.
     
  24. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,256
    Likes Received:
    6,974
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Instead of saying "I'll believe it when I see it", they should be saying "I see it because I believe it.". Consciousness creates our reality. That's why media, advertisements, and politicians can be so powerful. When they change peoples perceptions of reality, they are changing reality itself, as our collective consciousness is what creates reality.
     
  25. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The corporate-state is the cause, and that "it" is the only determinant that matters is the effect?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023

Share This Page