China begins banning/restricting Abortion

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by kazenatsu, Feb 20, 2023.

  1. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    LOL... no really.... The utter vacuum that you must inhabit... Perhaps directing you to the philosophers of the world might aid your view, but I suspect that it wouldn't be welcomed or received. So why bother. If that is the view you hold, it that is the only value you give yourself, I find that sad.
     
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  2. WhoDatPhan78

    WhoDatPhan78 Banned

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    Rights only exist because we respect them, and because the government is there to protect them.

    Without a society, you have no rights.

    That doesn't diminish them, in fact, it makes them more precious.

    We just need to remember that our rights exist because we respect them, that is what makes them real.
     
  3. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Hmm... I doubt you understand a world absent a government. Also sad. Government isn't the only agent that could protect rights. A society can exist without a government and many have historically that were successful. When you suggest that a right can be taken away, only an agency like government can take those rights from the people collectively. Your circular argument eats itself....
     
  4. WhoDatPhan78

    WhoDatPhan78 Banned

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    If someone kills you, they took away all your rights.

    If a group of people join together and agree to protect each others' rights, that is a government.
     
  5. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Given your argumentation, someone who kills me assumed rights not provided by government, did they not? How does that happen? A government doesn't inherently exist to protect people's rights. Been to China? It's a government, and they clearly don't protect individual rights. A group of people, say a religious group, joining together is a government? Really? A girl scout troop outing? Friends hiking in the Sierra? Your definition simply dissolves under scrutiny....
     
  6. WhoDatPhan78

    WhoDatPhan78 Banned

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    Yea, i never said that governments always protect rights, i said that rights only exist inasmuch as they are respected by other people.

    Here, the government tries to protect you from getting killed by someone, that's why it's illegal.

    Yes, if a group of girl scouts band together and agree to protect each others rights, they are a government.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2023
  7. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. The rights of two individuals can never be in conflict with one another.

    The American abortion debate is one between rights and religion where the latter party advocates sacrification of rights "in the name of God".

    And how is this any different from how American Conservatives approach the issue? You too want the government to dictate when a woman gives birth and you too complain about "muh, birth rates".

    Sounds like the anti-abortionist's wet dream, no?

    So, what are we supposed to discuss here exactly? Are you trying to say those who support abortion want abortion to be forced?

    Ah, yes. China.. The model of ehat a society dhould look like. :laughing:

    I know people on the right have a fetish for authoritarianism and other rights-violating regimes, but why try to force us to be like them instead of just moving there yourselves?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2023
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  8. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Wait! What? No way! :eek:

    Thanks for enlightening me, Captain Obvious.

    Nice package deal you made there, bro.

    Yes, altruism and utilitarianism are the two greatest enemies of human flourishing. But, it is not like anti-abortionists are not motivated by that very same philosophy -- "it is just an innocent baby! She can always give it up for adootion! Besides, she had sex, so she has an obligation to carry it to terms! Plus Whites are not having enough babies"

    And?

    Abortion bans have never in history been about "protecting human lives" anywhere.

    Aaaand unsurprisingly the "pRo fReEdOm aNd sMaLl gOvErNmEnT"-Republican mentions nothing about contemporary Russia and Putin because "At lEaSt hE iS noT oN thE lEfT aNd AbOrTiOn iS iLlegAl."

    I guess it is only a problem when government is involved in reproduction when said government is left-wing.

    Absolutely pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2023
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Do you SERIOUSLY take your leadership from CHINA???

    You point to a law in China that bans abortions except in the case of serious healthcare issues.

    And, that's what YOU want, isn't it?

    How about taking some leadership from long term stalwart, democracy loving, first world allies?

    Would that really be so objectionable?
     
  10. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Comparing the "leftists" as you call them in the Chinese Communist government to the pro-choice crowd in America is more than a little disingenuous.
     
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  11. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    The authoritarianism that Trumpy Republicans in the United States are hellbent upon inflicting on the People is a reflection of their loser/liar's being smitten by totalitarian despots, and very pissy about democratic self-governance.

    Forbes Estimates China Paid Trump At Least $5.4
    Million Since He Took Office, Via Mysterious Trump Tower Lease

    Screen Shot 2020-04-08 at 10.45.25 AM.png
    “They’re all top of the line,”
    Trump said of Chinese President Xi Jinping, North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un and Russian President Vladimir Putin.
    “Our guy’s not top of the line ― never was,”
    he added
    Trump also called Xi a
    “brilliant man”
    and praised Kim and Putin as
    “very smart.”

    Screen Shot 2023-04-13 at 8.18.08 AM.png

    Bolsonaro Denies Brazil Election Results


    Screen Shot 2023-04-13 at 8.22.08 AM.png

    Trump says he and North Korea's Kim Jong Un 'fell in love.'

    Screen Shot 2023-04-13 at 8.33.34 AM.png
    Trump says he believes Putin over U.S. intel

     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2023
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  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've noticed this same pattern in other threads. Any time a conservative tries to bring to light unbelievable things in some other country, some progressive always comes along and tries to turn it around and make the topic about Trump.
    I think most progressives don't really want to think or know about all the bad things going on in other parts of the world.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2023
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I concede that it is kind of disingenuous, but it is also kind of disingenuous to claim there is absolutely no connection also.

    I think something like China is what the U.S. would look like if the Left had absolutely no opposition and were able to take over entirely. It's easy to rail against the system and demand rights, but most of that kind of goes out the window when the political party you support is now running the country and securely in complete control.

    (I mean, we can already see what type of attitudes the Left has when it comes to personal freedoms in other areas, like the vaccines during the Covid pandemic. We all know you are not really staunch advocates of personal choice, when it comes to the principle)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I think all conservatives don't real want to know how close and friendly Trump is with dictators and how he worships them..and their policies..
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    This is the ABORTION forum....not the "vaccines scare me" forum.

    NO one was FORCED to take the vaccine....Anti-Choicers are all about FORCE....FORCING women to gestate......
    taking away a basic human right, bodily autonomy...which IS NOT taken away when you have to follow your EMPLOYER'S COMPANY POLICIES......you always have the OPTION to quit..
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its how authoritarians roll. We have our own version of them in full swing right here in US.
     
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  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    China has a SERIOUS population problem.

    Since that are autocratic, they can solve that problem by demanding an end to abortions, regardless of the freedom of women and the advice of doctors.

    This has NOTHING to do with our situation in America.

    We do have an impending issue with population growth, but that is not a crisis, we do have methods of solving it, and it is NOT the basis for the rulings against the rights and healthcare of American women.

    So stop propagating your NONSENSE.

    American women are being SCREWED by the religious right minority.

    That's just a fact.
     
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  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Oh, didn't you know you're in the Abortion Forum, not world events??
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I dunno. They could always impliment a 'forced impregnation' policy. I mean, we'd call it RAPE, but its for the Greater Good!

    ...and even then, I bet we'd still have a sleugh of authoritarian collectivists banging on about how the govt needs more and more power to 'protect our rights'...

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
  20. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    True. I wouldn't put it past Xi.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    What we're talking about here is China's policy on abortion.

    They are backing that up with pro-family legislation including:
    - tax breaks
    - child care subsidies
    - early education subsidies
    - extended, paid paternity and maternity leave (178 - 208 days)

    Do any of these sound familiar?

    Our snap judgements of Xi and China tend to be ludicrous. Underestimating China is a gigantic mistake.
     
  22. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Unless he goes full "women can't work" China will be dealing with women not wanting to give up their careers to make families.

    That's why all incentives to increase birth rates has failed.

    We supplement this short coming with mass immigration which clearly causes chaos as we are a melting pot of culture and religion and races some of which are CLEARLY not working well with each other.

    China doesn't allow for mass migration, and if you are not han Chinese, Buddhist? They have little value for you. It will be interesting to see which direction they go. Do they go full authoritarian to enforce procreation? Or do they allow mass migration but those of which who are not han Chinese end up as second class citizens?

    We shall see.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Whatever the reasons (I'm certainly not accepting offhand comments on reasons), the incentive direction has been only marginally successful in increasing birth rate in first world countries. China is undoubtedly oriented to small families throughout their society as that has been the norm.

    America does backstop our low procreation rate with immigration - fending off the serious problems that come with low procreation rate.

    Your claims of chaos do need to be addressed. White supremacists are a domestic terrorist threat, as per the FBI, for example.

    But, we were DESIGNED to be a melting pot. That has been our STRENGTH. We get new ideas, labor and smart brains through immigration. We have 4% of the world's brains in a rapidly emerging world that demands smart brains for the growing economic sectors. Pretending that we can compete when China (for example) which has several times that many brains is just a really bad bet.

    I'm not up on China policy for immigration. But, they do have serious xenophobia and state sponsored racism and religionism.

    Like in the US, those who are perceived to be immigrants will face social and professional hate and ostracism.

    Today the USA has elected officials who are just fine with perpetuating that hate and ostracism. We'll have to see if China does better.
     
  24. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    I want you to warm up to an ever growing reality that is the American population. As things level off more where groups become equalized, you will see more conflict as those groups struggle for power over the identity of the nation.

    Humans are tribal. We always have been, always will be. Diversity only works when you still have 1 clear cut dominant group to lead the culture/country. When you equalize the groups...**** goes south.

    That's just a speculation of which I have all of human history to pull from. And as we see the number of white people decline in the United States, so too will the level of race based violence increase. As we are seeing over the past half dozen years.

    These are issues that most/all of the asian countries do not have to deal with. They also happen to be the countries with the highest IQ who are also strongly against mass migration. I wonder why that is?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    America stands for EQUALITY.

    Our constitution directs equality. Having violent hate grounds and xenophobic individuals assault Americans over ethnicity and race is absolutely NOT acceptable.

    Biology notes equality.

    Our nation has been STRENGTHENED by diversity.

    Universities and colleges strive for diversity in every dimension (race, religion, residence location, etc., etc.) because it leads to better education.

    Sorry - you don't get to claim that HATE makes us better.
     

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