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Discussion in 'Science' started by OldManOnFire, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This graphic showed up a few days ago on Facebook and made a lot of sense to me. Comments?
     
  2. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This showed up a few days ago on Facebook and made a lot of sense to me. Comments?

    "We scientists don't know how to do that"

    "I used to think the top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse, and climate change.

    I thought that with 30 years of good science we could address those problems.

    But I was wrong.
    The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy...

    ...and to deal with those we need a spiritual and cultural transformation...

    ...and we scientists don't know how to do that."


    Gus Speth
     
  3. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    We also need world opinion on our side...

    ... fat lot o' luck with that happening.
     
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  4. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well those sins create the environmental problems. And capitalism provides the means .

    But given the earth has a finite existence carpa diem!
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  5. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I suspect Earth will last for billions more years or until our Sun fails. Mankind, however, can be in great trouble in just a few decades/centuries...
     
  6. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sure. Species come and go and only the naive think we will be around forever. And I doubt we will be here as long as the dinos.

    We live in a dangerous universe and deadly. One good sized asteroid and we are toast . Or one mistake and we and Russia exchange nukes. We have been close to that twice . So when some idiots want to ramp up tensions with Russia by starving their economy with economic warfare and their economy feeds their people and as politics here can keep us from talking to Russia. ...well a warmer earth isnt our most fangerous threat.

    Our time here is limited . whether its a cataclysm of nature or we self destruct. .
    I dont lose sleep over it for aint no one getting out of this place alive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  7. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    It's not the 'end' that is important...it's about the pain and suffering, the economic crisis, the migration of people, the death and disease, the starvation, the cultural chaos, wars, etc. etc. that will unfold as the potential effects become untenable to societies around the world. And which nation and it's citizenry are going to feel the most pain...the USA because we have so much to lose...
     
  8. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is assuming that a warmer earth creates what some people say will happen. There is no certainty here given the tremendous complexity involved . And for people to promote what you mentioned is just irresponsible . Some people. are speaking as if we discovered a huge asteroid that is on a trajectory that will impact the earth, an earth killer. And they run the math many times to insure their predictiob is right. Given there are so few variables to consider the prediction is very accurate . But this is not analogous to climate change predictions that takes down civilization. And yet some want to act as if the science and math is as certain as figuring the asteroid impact.

    No doubt any significance sea level rise will displace people. But that rise will not be fast like a tsunami and there will be time for people to relocate . And most of that will be a move inland .

    During the medieval warming cultivatable lands opened up northward expanding food productiob. Wine grapes could be grown in England .

    Sorry but I am not accepting it will all be negative nor do I believe in the doomsday predictions . Our knowledge is not sufficient to predict this. This is not me saying this but highly intelligent men like dyson freeman.

    It is what we dont know that disallows for certainty.
     
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  9. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    Wrong , sir !!!
    In another 50 yrs the USA and EU will easily be able to find any comet and deflect it .
    Russia adheres to life and the Cold War is long dead
    By next century : the human race will be a bi-planet Species
     
  10. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    Within 200-300 yrs : the human race will be a multiple star species and achieve immortality
     
  11. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    If you read my comments they clearly said; "as the potential effects unfold". These potential effects are very well known and already taking place. Scientific consensus says if mankind continues down the current path it's pretty clear what the potential might be. The US apparently cannot afford universal healthcare yet you believe it's a cakewalk to relocate millions of people? Trump already is creating $1 trillion deficits yet you think money grows on trees to relocate millions of people and businesses with little economic effect? You talk about growing wine grapes in the UK but you ignore the impact of decimating the northern CA wine grape business caused by higher temps and drought which would destroy the economy of perhaps 1+ million people who live and work in the area. Who pays for everything? 60% of Americans live pay check to pay check with little to no savings and you think they can simply relocate or start new careers or new businesses? IF and when the effects of climate change are realized...the outcome will be horrific.

    There is no conspiracy in science about climate change.

    Time IS NOT your friend if and when the effects appear! Americans ARE NOT proactive so they will wait until their asses are on fire before they take action. If you can possibly fathom how much time is required to relocate southern FL for example, and let's say it's 10-20 years, in what fantasy world is someone going to initiate the action to relocate? They're not!

    What you refuse to understand is that society and mankind are extremely fragile and it does not require much of an event to push us into catastrophic situations. People like you refuse to give any credence to climate change potential so this guarantees that the US and it's citizenry will let time pass, while doing nothing, then cry like babies when it's too late. There will never be a time when the scientific community can guarantee that on a certain date in the future certain things are going to happen so when you require this you will never get what you need to be educated and proactive...this is a do-nothing mentality!

    Lastly, what creates a DOOMSDAY is inaction to take proactive steps based on what we know and can theorize...your do-nothing position pretty much guarantees a DOOMSDAY...and you call me 'irresponsible'??
     
  12. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    USA is the only nation to take action !!!! WE eliminate the worst people on Earth while you Europeans do ZERO

    Relocate Florida lol. Man are you funny
     
  13. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The "most" is an irrelevant metric since the pain of the collapse of civilization will be quite fatal to most if not all humans on this dirtball.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  14. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If we survive long enough to be able to deflect we will have done the tremendous !! But we are not there yet and even if we do we would have to spot the rogue with the time needed to deflect it. We still have some sneak up on us when they come in from the direction of our star.

    We have begun another cold war and use economic warfare against Russia today demonizing them like never before.

    We have come close to MAD twice that we know of with a Russian general using his intuition over protocol. So one should want to be on decent terms with Russia out of being sane. The demonizing must end.

    Our rulers are far too irresponsible when it comes to Russia. Far too bellicose. And economic warfare can lead to traditional war. . Iraq had to put up with us killing half a mil. women and children by sanctions that Sec. Albreight said she would support again but would Russia? If we were to starve and kill a few million russians they might just roll the dice and blow us back to the stone age.. And who could blame them?
    Whether or not we survive the next 100 years is up to how we behave. Since we are the biggest factor and risk given our plunge into insanity since pnac was adopted as our foreign policy.

    I used to be a huge sci fi fan until most of the really good authors died out . People like Heinlein.

    Some of those novels were very positive about the future of humanity . Some novels told of dystopia. And yet the novels that told of dystopia are the ones coming true making the author a prophet. With Orwell nailing it in an eery fashion. And also Heinlein with his "crazy years" being prophetically uncanny.

    I wish I had your optimism but I think it to be idealistically naive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    So far we haven't had any missions to find significant numbers of aseroids.

    NASA has such missions planned. One will place a satellite in position to look back from the sun and detect the faint heat of objects warmed by the sun. That should end the current situation where most asteroids are found by amatures.

    Plus, various countries are landing on asteroids, determining their composition so methods of moving them can be designed.

    I don't believe it will take 50 more years to be pretty well covered.
     
  16. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One would think given the threat we would be waging less war and investing in finding them and intervening.

    Instead we authorize a space force that the pnac paper called for in the interest of US hegemony .
     
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  17. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This stuff will unfold over decades and longer and my point was in this interim unfolding period, it's the US and it's people who have the most to lose and will cry the loudest. The US can barely handle a major hurricane so anything on the scale of relocating people and business will be painful...
     
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  18. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have little faith in our people I have seen us pull together and help out others in these natural disasters. If we had to wait on the govt here in ms. our roads would be blocked with fallen trees for months! Instead we always have men with chainsaws removing the trees in short order as they seem to come in droves.

    We are tougher but it may just be rural people and small town America. Not sure how city people react. They may run in circles and scream and shout waiting on govt to take care of them.
     
  19. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pure conjecture . But it would be nice if you turn out right. When I was young in the 50s people like you predicted flying cars by now. No one back then predicted self driving earth based autos.

    A better prediction would be we destroys ourselves with nukes given the history of our species and our love of war . Not to mention an accidental exchange of nukes. We still have icbms pointed at one another even with the end of the cold war and communist revolution.

    Who in their right mind would still point our nukes at another nuke armed nation risking an accident

    Only something with the iq of a chimp
     
  20. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Yeah right...when 75 million Americans earn $16.35/hour or less?
    When Americans live pay check to pay check.
    When 60% of Americans have no savings.

    I don't believe in faith...I believe in facts...
     
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  21. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    Most Americans always have lived pay check to pay check.
    More are working now than ever before.
    Its a rough World
     
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There is NO justification for denying healthcare. Pretending like "it's a rough world" justifies that is absolutel nonsense.

    Every other first world country manages to provide health care to ALL their citizens for LESS than what we spend yet still have great healthcare systems.

    Why is it "rough" in America, but not in other countries?

    How did we get to the point where we believe we need to deny healthcare to Americans on low income?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  23. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    Anyone has health care
    You have Medicaid and Medicare and obamacare
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Trump is trying to end that.

    His guys are arguing to kill it in court.

    Republicans have been trying to kill our healthcare system for yerars.

    And NOW, Trump wants you to believe he's SAVING preexisting condition coverage!!!

    How do you save a piece of the ACA by killing the ACA with NO replacement???
     
  25. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We should be a bi-planet species now. We could've put a sustainable colony on mars with just what we've spent warring in iraq and afghanistan in the last 20 years.

    But here's to hoping for the next 20 to be more wisely better spent.
     

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