Dang Pronouns

Discussion in 'Gay & Lesbian Rights' started by Lucifer, Feb 18, 2023.

  1. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you going to give me an example of "they" at any time in the English language without a plural antecedent?
     
  2. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    ATM, I only have access to my phone which does not make for a good research device. So you will have to wait until I can have time to make use of my laptop. Given that I am a truck driver, you will need to be patient.
     
  3. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh no worries. Take your time and be careful out there on the road.
     
  4. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    So very early in research (my Google fu is not strong), meaning this is just a touch base kind of post. But one of the things I ran across is that the use of singular "they" began in the late 1300, but scholars did not start fighting against such a use until the 18th century. Even today linguists, the experts on language, are in conflict with each other over it. So it is not definitive one way or the other, per the experts. However, I did run across this:

    (bold mine, italics theirs)

    In other words, past proper use isn't a guarantee of current proper use. Such proper use can, and has changed. Again, I point to the use of the term "you" which was originally a plural pronoun, but also went singular as well as plural. Yet no one today argues over that use. Thus, even ignoring the scholars and linguists saying that "they" has been singular as well as plural over the centuries, The current use of singular "they" is proper since that is how society is using it more and more, despite efforts to stop it from the relatively fewer opponents.

    Further, we have already been using the singular they with a known singular person when gender is unknown or is purposefully hidden, such as with a witness, without there being a plural antecedent. Example of the first. "What sex is Frances? Are they male or female?" Frances being a name that is either male or female, the subject is still a single known entity with no plural antecedent present.
     
  5. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let me know when you come up with an example between 1300 and the 1700's.

    I have seen a lot of comments that it was done, but none of the sources provided gives an example of one, other than the "Each hurried" one that doesn't help your argument.

    Sure. The English language can change.

    She couldn't not not start not doing her the day before today.

    And your example "What sex is Frances?" is a plural antecedent.

    If you are not aware if Frances is male or female, then you have two possibilities.

    What would the answer be if Frances' mom answered the question? I.E she knows the sex?

    Would she say "She is female/He is male" or "They is female/They is male"?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  6. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Are you going to be one of those types who will use the appeal to authority fallacy to any expert you don't agree with? Because that in and of itself can be a fallacy or sorts. At some point we have to look to the experts of a given field otherwise, pretty much every argument becomes an appeal to authority fallacy. Saying we landed on the moon is an appeal to authority, putting the conspiracy theorists in the right.

    The subject is still Frances, singular, hence the "they" is singular. Otherwise we then have to rollback the use of "you" back to plural only. As to mom, she could well answer with they, especially if asked with they. It would not.be uncommon, at least in my experience.
     
  7. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't use an appeal to authority.

    People slinging "APA" and "Webster" at me are doing that.

    So far, that is what is being used to COUNTER my arguments.

    No, Frances is not a singular subject if the subject is unknown. There are plural possibilities with Frances.

    And yes, if Frances' mom was engaging in Frances' mental problems, she might.

    She would sound stupid, but hey.

    She might also say "Dolphin-self is male, Dolphin-self is female, Dolphin-self is non-binary on Weds".

    That's using a fallacy to justify a fallacy though, I gave you the benefit of the doubt on that one, but you did it anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  8. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstood me. I was asking if you were going to claim that I was using appeal to authority fallacy no matter what experts in the field I referenced. And if so then what is the point to providing evidence, since it will all be dismissed as "appeal to authority"?

    Actually Frances is singular, as denoted by the use of the word "is" within the sentence. Further in my research I have learned that the terms like anyone, someone, and even everyone are singular pronouns, and are thus singular antecedents.

    Basically what you have been arguing are plural are actually singular indefinite. Which in turn means that the use of "they" with such singular indefinite pronouns is a singular "they". As noted, this is enforced by the use of the singular of the verb instead of the plural of the verb.

    Not necessarily. One doesn't have to agree with the non-binary mindset to use language in such a way. "Mrs. Mom, We can't seen to determine Frances' sex. What are they?" "They are a male." It's not uncommon to answer in the same form as the question. Both that response and "He is a male" would be correct.
     
  9. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If Frances' can be either male or female, then you are not dealing with a singular possibility.

    The option for Frances' sex is plural, until the sex is known.

    There are plural options. Not sure why that's hard to grasp.

    Nobody would say "What are they?"

    "Mrs. Mom, we can't seem to determine Frances' sex. What is it?"

    "Sex" is what you're asking about. Not Frances.

    Nobody would say "They are male". They would say "He is male".

    The only people who wouldn't say what I said are people who already proscribe to the ridiculous notion that plural pronouns can apply to a singular, known subject.

    I have never read a book, or heard anyone in any context ever, in my entire life, say "They is male". And I've read some ****ing books, let me tell you.

    If you wrote that in a paper 5 years ago you'd have been laughed at.

    Just because mentally ill people think they're a "they" doesn't change that fact.

    The only way a "they" is a "they" is if there are two of them being referenced at the same time.
     
  10. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't work this is my non-binary friend Pat, they is a math tutor. You would have to say they are a math tutor so it's plural.

    Where you could say he or she is a math tutor because it's singular.

    People sometimes use the sort of language when they don't know what the gender is.

    But the people that demand you use this as their pronoun want you to not know what their gender is despite the fact that it's obvious in almost all cases.

    What the whole point of this is is because they don't want you to believe you're lying eyes they don't want to be seen as the sex that they are for whatever reason I'm sure there's several.
     
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  11. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that it's always mental illness I think it can be in some cases probably traumatic experiences there's a lot of non-binary the only ones I've ever observed are female or really underdeveloped male. So I think non-binary is a way to cope with maybe some abuse.

    For males the prospective not being desired by females.

    Inside of this I think it's just an effort to try and be different cuz there is nothing different or unique about the person otherwise. And you'll know these people because they have to inform you every 5 minutes over and over and over again like you're going to forget like you care in the first place.

    And they get mad at you for not affirming their identity because you not affirming the identity indicates that it's not reality.

    The something is people used to grow out of this crap in high school and now they're not giving that opportunity.
     
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  12. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well sure, but mental trauma like that is quite often classified as a mental illness.

    PTSD, which I'm very familiar with, for example.

    In fact, I suspect that a lot of the trans stuff are people that are traumatized so badly that they are rejecting everything about themselves down to their very genetic makeup.

    This is reinforced by the fact that being trans is usually just one of the mental afflictions they have.

    I suspect a lot of men are simply engaging in autogynephilia, and don't actually believe they are women. This is supported by data that shows there are as many as 4 times as many mtf as ftm "trans" people.

    This interview is pretty revealing. The purple haired guy that thinks he's a woman gets really upset when Blaire tells him that a manufactured vagina isn't a real vagina.

    You can literally see real time his brain desperately recoiling from facts and reality and getting very upset about it.

     
  13. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Notice how they keep trying to sneak in the syntax that is wrong to justify the wrong syntax.

    It's all they have.

    They have zero examples of it ever being used at any point in history prior to a few years ago, and only in regards to trans nonsense.
     
  14. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    it's certainly can become that but I think sometimes it also becomes non-binary.
    I wonder if it's actually some people are just gay and they think they have to identify a certain way.

    I don't know if three people go through this I'm sure they do to some degrees somehow or another but in the process of coming out you go through a lot of things. Sexual identity is a big part of it if that's why you see a lot of gay guys that adopt more feminine characteristics but then again you see straight guys that do that too.

    And it makes me wonder if people see that and say hey that's something women should do back in the 1950s maybe my son's really old girl and it's easier than dealing with a sissy son or a gay son.
    order to people choose to identify this way because of the celebration of transness. Did they tell people How brave they are and how courageous it was to come out and I'm not saying that it isn't. But non-binary is kind of half-assed to trans it it's adopting the identity without any of the internal struggle.
    I think that's definitely a component but I don't think that it is when we're talking about children and teenagers maybe teenagers. But that's a very old thing I mean crossdressers have been around at least since the biblical times because they wrote about it and that.
    Watching so much of Contrapoints content I think he's an autogynophilia person. You would always wear these costumes that were very feminine very seductive and he would make no effort to have a feminine body.

    He gets upset because Blair isn't submitting. But this isn't about affirmation it's about submission. Knowing what I know about contrapoints he's a bit of an authoritarian. It's been a long time since I've heard anything from this character.
     
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  15. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    The subject is still singular. The number of options for the subject is irrelevant. Singular indefinite is still singular. I provided you the reference to show that. Singular "they" is a thing that has existed prior to the whole transgender use issue. Further, even if it wasn't, it has become such a common place usage that the linguist have now included it as part of the current language and grammar.
     
  16. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The number of options clearly isn't irrelevant as nobody speaks the way you suggested they do.

    Nobody has ever spoken the way you suggested they do until a few years ago.

    Well, outside of the mentally ill. This is why you have no actual examples that work.

    I eagerly await your future arguments and examples where you shoehorn in "dolphin-self" and other such nonsense.

    "We've always been at war with Eastasia!"

    If people want to speak like this, they can go right ahead and do it. It just makes identifying them in the wild even easier.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  17. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Obviously we need to simplify this down.

    Is the pronoun "everyone" singular or plural?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2023
  18. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's another indefinite pronoun referring to a singular complete group of people.

    Next question.
     
  19. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Which is the singular word: "is" or "are"?
     
  20. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A group is a singular entity.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but it's not gonna work.
     
  21. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Sounds more like you don't want to admit that singular "they" is singular.
     
  22. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except it's not.

    "Everyone" is an indeterminate group of individual people, but it is treated as a singular entity.

    Although a group of people is a singular entity, you're still using "they" because there are multiple people in the group.

    So unless they're forming Voltron, calling them "they" is appropriate.

    There are zero examples, anywhere in history, of a known singular individual having used a plural pronoun.

    Doesn't exist. Well, outside of the royal "we".

    Your gymnastics are helping my argument, not yours.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  23. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Let's try this from a different tack.

    Singular "they" and singular "you" both derived from the plural of the words. Which means at one point that use of the words as singular were new. As such there is absolutely no reason why singular they" should not get this new use. Any argument against it means that there should never have been an acceptance of "you" as singular, much less "they" or even "gay" as other than "festive"
     
  24. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no equivalent in the English language for a singular human being in a known situation to get a plural pronoun, ever, at all, in the entirety of the history of the English language.

    You're forced to revert to try to equate unknown, non-quantified examples to known and quantified pronouns.

    You would give an example if you had one, but you can't, because they don't exist.

    At least until the mentally ill decided they individually wanted to be referred to in moronic ways, that is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2023
  25. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. "You" was initially a plural pronoun. It became a singular pronoun in the 14th or 15th century. The word is still used in both plural and singular form, but it was not always so. Your statement is false, and there is no reason, especially with that precedent, why "they" cannot also refer to a singular known human.

    There is nothing unknown about the singular "you". Further, as I pointed out, singular indefinite is is still singular, thus singular "they" exists. The two facts together show that there is no reason not to use singular "they" for singular definitive as well as indefinite.

    You not accepting the examples is on you, not me.
     

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