Define gender

Discussion in 'Gay & Lesbian Rights' started by Polydectes, Jan 30, 2023.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Aside from the normal definition dictionaries are vague blathering about identity which is meaningless to me.

    Okay I want you to explain what gender identity means. Is it anything at all?
     
  2. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's an issue with you, not the definition of the word. You clearly don't like the concept but can't (or don't want to) explain what you dislike about the concept so you're turning on the definition of the word. It's like me saying the definition of the word "angel" is meaningless because I don't believe they actually exist.

    In general, it is the gender a person innately relates to. It usually matches a persons biological sex but sometimes it doesn't. I'm sure you already knew that though.
     
  3. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, maybe I should start a thread about it where are you invite people to explain.

    Oh wait..
    What concept? You haven't expressed a concept that's what I asked you for and you pull this immediately mouth nonsense.

    That's because you don't understand the concept.
    well if you did this I could explain the concept of an Angel. Here I'll show you how you do it.

    In the strictest sense an angel is a mythological manifestation of a deity to go out amongst people to work out the deities will.

    See I didn't have to play duh context derpa derpa derr.

    You don't have to believe in God or any deity to understand what I said. Unless you also don't understand what a leprechaun or a unicorn or a dragon is.

    See how easy that is it was effortless.
    you're defining the word with the word.

    Notice when I explained to you what an angel is I didn't define it as something with angelic properties.

    Explain what this means.
    What usually matches a person's biological sex that's what I'm asking about. This isn't defining it this is dancing around.

    This is why I say it's nothing you are proving that it's nothing you can't even define it.
     
  4. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Gender: A pattern of behaviors within the context of a culture that distinguishes a person as of a particular social role within a culture. Usually, these are defined by typical roles in parenting and sexuality, but some cultures also have other genders separate from, and/or in contrast to, biological-sex based genders. These include what we know of today as trans people, but also other forms such as shamans who do not fulfill traditional male or female roles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  5. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    that's a gender role.
    I have a hard earlier use used gender as an adjective gender role. Which really just means sex role is those things were determined by sex that meaning of the word is a synonym for sex.

    Define the separate other meaning that seems to be elusive and I'm sorry you can't use gender or sex roles to do that.

    Define what the adjective is describing.
     
  6. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Roles define gender. Vagueness is necessary because cultures are so varied, as are individuals.

    But if you want it simple, just think of gender as the cultural/behavior analog of biological sex. Biological sex isn't always straightforward either (though it usually is). But sometimes people have things like androgen insensitivity syndrome in which case neither sex/gender fully applies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'm old enough to remember when it referred to what definitive object you used in describing a noun in non english languages. Certain words were male or female. The past few years it's been used as a substitute for the word "sex." Apparently the newer generation doesn't like that and decided to hijack it for other weird purposes.
     
  8. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    do they really so I think I'm a man but since roles define gender that's in doubt. I cook and I do in my relationship with my partner a lot of things that a woman would do and a relationship with the man does that mean I'm a woman?

    Explain these roles and how they define gender.

    I don't know this seems like a very rigid 1950s vital thumper version of gender. Which if we're honest really is just sex.
    the problem is I'm not observing a vague idea I'm observing absolute meaninglessness.
    so she trans women as men because that's their sex?
    Not that sex is really relevant to the topic here but I'm going to say this it's pretty straightforward. It's so incredibly straightforward we can see it in other species.

    It's never a stallion that gives birth to a full it's never able that gives birth to a calf it's never a drink that lays eggs.

    And it's absolutely never a human male that becomes pregnant.

    That's a straightforward as it can be.

    This gibberish about anomalies and birth defects doesn't change anything.
     
  9. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    My personal review on it is the end goal is to try and dissolve the idea of sex.

    He's picked gender to work on as a doorway to that or stepping stone. Because apparently it has some cultural significance like foreign languages for example.

    The question I have this why.
     
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  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, you asked for the definition of a word (which you've repeatedly been given, be me and others, and could have easily found yourself). The key question is why you don't like those definitions.

    That'd be because you only gave the definition from a modern Abrahamic point of view. The word can apply to a whole range of different beings, both those proposed to be real and those defined as fictional. If we were going to have a discussion about angels, we'd have to agree what kind of angels we'd be talking about.

    No, that was the definition of "gender identity" as you asked for.

    Again, the definition(s) of the word have been established. Your problem is clearly about the recent socio-political furores surrounding gender identity and transgender individuals. You can keep pretending it's all about a simple linguistic definition but you're not fooling anyone.
     
  11. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Not in our culture. Men and women cook. If you wear dresses, want to be referred to as her, and try to make your body look like a female, then you would probably be calling yourself a woman in terms of gender.

    What are you getting at? You're making a point, not being inquisitive, so cut the crap and make your point.

    Gender is sort of like money. It is what we as a society agree it is. It's not biological sex, but it's usually highly correlated.

    Gender isn't a concept that matters for species without a complicated culture. And whether we call different things genders will depend on what we want gender to be. Allegedly (just a possible example from wikipedia), when gender wasn't a political issue, there can be many:

    "In old Israel[when?] there were:

    • Androgynos: both male and female genitalia (eternal doubt of legal gender)
    • Aylonit: Barren female. Female genitalia, barren.
    • Nekeva: female
    • Saris: castrated or naturally infertile male (often translated as "eunuch")[92][93]
    • Tumtum: genitalia concealed by skin (unknown gender, unless skin removed)
    • Zachar: male"
    Republicans want to strictly define it as men and women because: Prejudice. You: Probably that and horizontal hostility. There are species that literally have fluid sexes. But so what? The point isn't what's natural, the point is what helps us to get along as a society.

    Not all females can get pregnant either, but old women past menopause and those who were always sterile still call themselves women.

    It changes everything. Since they exist, ambiguity exists, even outside of psychiatric conditions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  12. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    in the title yeah that's the hook to pull you in normally when you click on a title in a thread you'd read the op and understand specifically what I was asking for. And you realize it's not the absolute simple definition.

    I couldn't put the entire op in the title even if it was allowed by The forum it would make the form clunky and hard to use.
    but not really. I hear people repeating the same meaningless trash that I'm trying to cut through.
    yeah that's why I said in the strictest sense if that's not what you would meant when you ask what Angels were hypothetically, you would say no that's not what I meant I'm talking about such and such and yada just like I did.
    no it's not you define the word by saying the word I don't want to know how you use it in a sentence.
    No actually more than that my question was about the nuance you know that if you read. It's not a problem it's the discussion topic the only one I'm seeing with the problem here is you. Because I'm not accepting your half assed answers.

    Really what I'm doing is asking you to think about it and you don't want to. You aren't fooling anyone either.
     
  13. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    what does in terms of gender mean we haven't established the meaning of that word yet so we can't talk in terms of gender.

    So if I identify as a woman but don't wear a dress and don't try to look feminine I can't be trans?

    Where do these rules come from?


    trying to figure out what is gender.
    fair enough gender and the sense of being separate from sex is nothing that is ideology. And what I paste that on is your statements you can't define it.

    You tried to deflect with gender roles which isn't gender at all. Then you trying to say it's putting on a dress and trying to look feminine but that's not what it is. Because I at 6 ft tall with the full beard and lumberjack clothes on can I identify as a woman.


    this is the point of the discussion we're not in agreement what it is.

    You say it's not biological sex other people say that it is I can find dictionary definitions that say that it is. You say usually it's Harley correlated but that's not the case either.

    The point I'm making is people have turned this into a morass of meaninglessness.


    gender as in general roles or specific assignments based on sex is something our culture abandoned in the 60s.

    This is something I don't understand why are people today trying to rebel against parents in the 1950s we already did that.

    There are no gender roles. At least not in our culture that's why you have to go to other cultures to find it.


    when you tell me an entire group of people that you've made up think and feel a specific way as though they are hive mind that is prejudice.

    I couldn't be less interested in this partisan crap that has nothing to do with the subject.

    I'm not a republican I'm not a Democrat I never have been I never will be so don't bring this garbage up to me as a response to me it means nothing.


    So explain the societal help that making a term meaningless does?


    this is not making definitions by the exception thing and it doesn't work. Females with defective or no longer functioning reproductive systems do not define the rule. Unless you're seeing that their interchangeable with males.

    There's no ambiguity. That's like saying someone born without an arm makes whether or not humans have two for limbs and ambiguous it doesn't.

    The person born without an arm has a birth defect that's not just what normal people are born like.
     
  14. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't seem complicated to me. Gender is cultural - the cultural correlate of sex (or lack thereof). Sure, some people mess up the terms. And some people don't fit into the boxes very well (though your examples would make me suspect the person isn't being genuine about it).

    See your own sig. Trans and intersex people have a feeling about who they are. It's weird to me that there are people who feel like they were born in the wrong body, basically (trans), or do not believe they fit either of our cultural norms for gender (non-binary), but the best thing to do for them is to accept that they're different and it's okay. In terms of treatment, medical science suggests that affirmation is the most therapeutic approach for trans.

    You may think they're just delusional, and most republicans may think that, but so what? I think all christians are delusional, but I still have to respect their beliefs when I work with them (less so on here, obviously). They should learn to do the same for trans people.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  15. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    What is the thing you are calling cultural?
    what terms though that's the question of this thread.

    And yes there are exceptions to the rule exceptions to the rule don't change the rule.

    Humans are born with two for lunch even though some don't have them upon birth.


    who in this thread have I said is sinful for being who they are?
    see here's an issue. I don't feel cultural norms for gender, relationship with another man. So am I non-binary? By the things you said here I absolutely must be. That I don't identify this way so that's not really relevant.

    It's something else.
    this is outside of the scope of the discussion and I'm not really interested in it.
    Again, off topic and not interesting.
    This thread isn't about trans people.

    It's about the meaning of the word gender.

    What are you trying to thrill it to talk about trans and Republicans?

    Is it because you can't explain what the hell gender is?

    I haven't seen any satisfactory explanation.
     
  16. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    I did. Pretty simple.
     
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Gender:
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    gender
    1 of 2
    noun
    gen·der ˈjen-dər


    plural genders
    Synonyms of gender


    1
    a
    : a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms
    b
    : membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass
    c
    : an inflectional form (see inflection sense 2a) showing membership in such a subclass
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

    What's wrong with dictionary definitions?
     
  18. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    You're just explaining one meaning. That's but the one I'm talking about.
     
  19. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    There is one meaning for gender. It's not splintered into different meanings.
     
  20. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for not reading the op
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Then this thread is above your head.
     
  22. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    I'm satisfied with my definition. Trans came up because of the usual motives for coming up with a thread like this. Instead of letting people be who they are, typical republicans attack them for being different. Trans is about gender being inconsistent with biological sex, so it's relevant.

    The key for gender is how you want other people to treat you as in our culture. If you want people to treat you as a woman, you would dress and act like a woman. If you want it to be ambiguous as you don't like either of the traditional genders, that may motivate somebody to be non-binary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  23. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    What definition?
    what is this thing that you refer to each gender that's inconsistent with sex that's actually what this is about.

    I think you just want to put people in boxes and label them because you don't want to discuss the topic.
    suits depended on other people you mean it's not your identity it's how you are identified by others? That absolutely undermines everything else you said that's why I started this thread because you are making the word meaningless by contradicting yourself.
    but that's not really it though. Because what happens if I do those things them people still treat me like a man? That means I'm not trans by your latest definition.
    I think I'm binary just consistent telling people you're not binary and nothing else because outside of that I have no idea what it means.
     
  24. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Typically people assess biological sex based upon whether there is a penis or XY chromosomes, though neither are 100% reliable. People who have these biological characteristics have stereotyped patterns of behaviors in our culture, and also secondary sexual characteristics such as facial hair. We use their patterns of behavior (gender) and physical characteristics (sex) to determine whether we will socially treat them as male, female, or non-binary.

    No I want to treat them as they want to be treated unless it harms somebody else.

    It's an interaction between the two. "patterns of behavior," are an external manifestation of self-identification, and the context of culture gives a shared meaning with other people, and informs how they act towards you, affirming how you see your own gender.

    It's an interaction. If they disagree and don't treat you that way, obviously it leads to distress. People have an obligation to be respectful and do reasonable accommodation, but people have their own preferences to think of too. Like I wouldn't date a trans person, but there's lots of kinds of people I wouldn't date if I were dating.

    People will usually try to put a non-binary person into one box or the other because that's what our cultural typically does. The newer generation is trying to get away from that, though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  25. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not interested in this and I absolutely refuse to talk about it.
    so if I want to be treated like an emperor and that's my good idea you will bow before me and do my bidding?


    So I get to determine sometime else's gender identity?

    This is why I say that means nothing.

    You keep going back and forth it's cultural no it's based on your behaviors. I suggest that it's neither of those


    Well yeah, if I put myself worth in the hands of people that don't care about it it's going to cause me distress. That's why I reject your definition. It's not because I have a different opinion it's because I know you're wrong.

    When I started dating a man people referred to me as a woman and expected behaviors out of me. The reason I didn't have distress is because I learned not to place self worth in their hands.
    They don't though. They have every right in the world to be jerks. My partners parents told him he was dead to them when he came out. If they had an obligation what consequences have they suffered for not meeting them? I have an obligation to control my vehicle on the roadway if I don't I can get a traffic ticket. There are absolutely no consequences for not inviting this obligation you seem to think exists.
    Still struggling to understand this so called obligation that if you don't adhere to nothing happens.


    Technically I'm non binary because I don't adhere to gender norms but I don't identify that way so it doesn't mean that.

    So far all it seems to mean is that what people call themselves.
     

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