DeGodization of world

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Interaktive, Mar 12, 2023.

  1. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    My religion already has "special standing" in that I have the freedom to practice it, as well as you yours. If you want to believe that freedom comes from the men who established it, that's somewhat understandable considering the magical thinking of unbelief. I prefer to believe their own words, that it comes from God thru their efforts. It is no different than a prophet who speaks Gods word. The prophet speaks it, but it comes from God. Similarly, the kitchen faucet doesn't make water. It delivers it from elsewhere. But if you want to believe that freedom is rooted in the men who established it, rather than in the God to whom they state that it is rooted, then be my guest and turn a deaf ear to reason. To me, American freedom will always be one of Gods miracles. And we the recipients.

    You say there is no God, and that centuries of trial and error begat the USA. Your obvious error is not considering that God lives and is eternal. Therefore what is it to you if he, over the centuries according to the preparedness of men, and bit by bit, brings about his own purpose in the birth of American freedom. The eternal nature of a living God is your blind spot.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You have no evidence of what else you are saying here. Any examination of western government shows a step wise advancement starting before the western discovery that this continent exists. The separation of Christianity from government was one of the seriously important steps that gave us freedom.

    And again, Jesus gave mankind DUTIES, not freedom, not the special standing you claim for yourself, not our government or any other government. Jesus accepted Caesar.
    Your blind spot is that you see your religion as supreme over all other religions that were created by those more ignorant than you, thus conferring special standing on you.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's not special standing. That is equality.
     
  4. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    WRM, you have not listened in the past. Ten demerits!! Here is the reason that the FFs had a great deal more wisdom than do we, and why these ideas gave rise to the greatest country ever [flag waving and fireworks going off in background]...

    In order for freedom to be sustained, the FFs knew that fundamental rights [freedoms] handed down to U.S. citizens must come from a higher moral authority [God, in this case], not man nor his government. The reason for this is that rights handed down by a higher moral CANNOT be corrupted [or revoked].

    Taking God out of the equation [thereby substituting man or his government] will fail every time as many understand [except the Left that still seems to believe that with two lizard gizzards, an eye of newt, and a sprig of bat hair thrown into the cauldron, devils will morph into angels and the Utopian age will have dawned].

    God exists because man self-destructs without Him. It's THAT simple.

    The key is in understanding the power of having a higher moral authority. Once you comprehend the full scope of these implications, it will forever change how you view God/man/government.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
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  5. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    That it is because of God, makes it special to me. And it isn't a given as it was begotten by war. Fwiw, the King didn't believe in, respect, or honor the true God of our Forefathers either, even though they plainly stated it the Declaration of Independence.
     
  6. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Denying the existence of God is THE greatest error one can make in this life. Finding peace on this Earth can only happen once you relieve yourself of the burden of believing that you are all alone in the Universe. No man can bear such a fate.
     
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  7. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I also agree with your previous post that God given rights can't justly be removed by man. But if rights are given or perceived to be given by man, then man can remove them. And that is majority or mob rule.
     
  8. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    This is perhaps the most important reason why the Left is anti-God. They must hold the ultimate authority [which always comes down to mass murder], a position inconsistent with a moral higher authority.
     
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  9. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention that it also undercuts their own foundation.
     
  10. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    You really have to hand it to the FFs for being able to puts these ideas into practice. Some two and half centuries later, so very few people understand what they were able to do and why we have been free as long as we have.

    Although there are some out there attempting to educate folks as to the importance of having a religious-based moral order as the foundation of government, most people simply do not understand the difference between being a responsible individual and individualism [which discounts the importance of a higher moral authority].

    A life without religion or spirituality [deferring to a higher moral authority over and above the self] cannot end well individually or collectively. In it's zeal to completely hand over one's agency to a God-less institution, The Left enthusiastically bursts open the doors to Hell, the consequences easily read in the miserable words of the faithful who self-flagellate on this forum while insisting that others follow them into the intellectual abyss.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
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  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The special standing that Injeun wants is standing within our government over and above those who don't hold to his religion.

    It doesn't have to do with opposition to atheism. Atheism is a small minority. Fears of government recognition of atheism are ridiculous.

    Opposing Injeun's special standing is the view of our forefathers. They did not claim special standing for their differing personal religions or that of anybody else. They lived at a time when Christian variants ran the colonies. In some cases, taxes went to the dominating religious hierarchy. That special standing of one religion is something they strongly opposed. They had the experience of UK, with its history of civil wars over religion and legal dominance of sectarian influence.

    If there is a power grab, it is the attempt to override the first amendment in favor of his own religion, giving his religion special standing in deciding what freedoms we actually have, what the government may do to promote his religion, etc.

    That IS affecting our government today, denying freedom and using government to promote religious beliefs not shared.
     
  12. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Can you cite examples of this? Please leave abortion out of this discussion [as although there is certainly fervent religious objection, abortion is a secular moral issue, as well].
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Everything is a secular moral issue as well.

    A significant majority of those in favor of extreme laws against abortion are Evangelical Protestants.
     
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  14. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the name needs to be changed to Non-interaktive. It remains to be seen whether they (non-judgmental pronoun) can write a complete sentence. But maybe unknowingly they have a point. The most stable governments with extensive social safety nets and little social unrest turn out to be the least religious countries, excluding countries with active suppression of religion. The most religious, excluding countries that actively mandate a religion, are the ones that are the most corrupt, unstable and poor. The US is a bit of an outlier. It is more religious than its peers, although religiosity is dropping. That has been explained by the fact that it also produces the most new religions and they cater to a wide range of tastes.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the US and a good number of others have moved beyond the idea of one religion, forced on the population at the point of a sword.

    I'm not so sure that what we are seeing is "degodification".

    Increased religious tolerance could easily be confused with abandoning the supernatural.

    I don't like the SC ruling that allows instructors at state k-12 schools to teach kids which religion is true.

    That's not because I oppose people believing in their god. It's that it is not the place of government to teach which religious view is correct.

    We have a devoutly religious SC, and they were chosen partly based on their disbelief in the first amendment.
     
  16. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Six justices that overturned Roe v Wade, which was settled law, that is law that was used as precedent to decide other cases, something the new justices promised not to overturn, were raised Catholic. One can not untangle what is religious from secular opinion.
    A society under stress needs religion as a safe place much more than a stable, peaceful society.
    I'm unaware of the S. Carolina ruling if you could site.
     
  17. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Abortion is the great issue of our time because it's consideration requires one to ponder all inter-related issues.

    It has been my experience that most thoughtful people are both pro- and anti- abortion, so within the American tradition, the tie goes to the individual [although you can certainly see where choosing such a road leads to a lifetime of remorse for many who choose abortion].

    It is much like holding a gun in your hand and making the decision to blow off the guy's head who is currently strangling your child. It's the right thing to do but it will lead to a lifetime of pain.
     
  18. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    You have a bad batting average judging women. A survey showed that 5 years after an abortion 95% of the women did not regret their decision.
     
  19. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, but so what? That doesn't mean they feel good about it or will not feel the effects of it for many years to come.

    This must be a brutal decision on many levels, one that will manifest itself in many ways as women mature.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    SC - Supreme Court.

    We could improve our "religion as a safe place" situation.
     
  21. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Sure they may regret having to make the decision, but they do not regret the decision once made. That is a long way from the hyperbolic, leading to "a lifetime of pain" and "they (feel) the effects of it for many years to come."
    Oh, I'm used to seeing it SCROTUS, but what's worse, in Maine’s Carson v. Makin, the Court ruled 6–3 that a state could not exclude private religious schools from receiving public funding only because of their religion. So religious schools can tell queer kids they are evil sinners and dinosaurs walked with Adam and Eve and the state can not do anything about it.
    SCROTUS, making religion a safe place with public funds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
  22. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I knew a woman who in her seventies and bed ridden, was very troubled by having had an abortion when she was in her thirties. I didn't know what to say to her when she confided her secret. So I said, clearly you are sorrowful. And in owing to the kindness of God, I'm sure he would know your heart and forgive you, as do I. As I left the room, I turned back and said, just see to it that it doesn't happen again. She smiled.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, our highly religious SC has made a number of decisions that can't be explained outside of religious justification.

    That's been true in the past, too.

    Justice Scalia in his statement of opposition to Lawrence V Texas (resulting in an end to laws against oral and anal sex) included the statement that if there can't be such laws as the one in Texas, then how could the court ever object to same sex marriage?

    That's obviously an outrageous argument, clearly not based on the constitution.

    And, it is similar to what Justice Thomas has written in his ruling concerning abortion. After all, if abortion is legal then how can there be rulings against morning after pills and contraception - other personal objectives of his.
     
  24. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    How many people have you chatted with who have had an abortion and how many have you talked with who had one twenty-thirty-forty years ago?
     
  25. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    This is not uncommon to hear [and must be nearly universal, although unspoken].
     
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