Do You Prefer Capitalism or Socialism?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Libhater, Apr 16, 2021.

  1. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) No, it isn't. A Govt can USE an economic model, but it isn't the economic model itself. That's an absurdity.

    2) There hasn't been any socialism in Europe since before the industrial revolution .. and even then it was really just tenant socialism. Very little private property. Europe is now wholly capitalist. The UK likewise.

    3) No 'modern country' (by which I assume you mean the First World West) has socialism. Not one.
     
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  2. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Democracy (as you understand it) cannot exist in collectivism. They're mutually exclusive propositions.
     
  3. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    What
    That will come as a great surprise to every socialist in every socialist party in every democracy in the modern world. Except in the English speaking brainwashed world of course. Socialism is democratic, communism isn't everybody knows it but English speakers and especially GOP zombies. English propaganda is strong and super capitalist corporate. Napoleon was slightly taller than average and he never said England was a nation of shopkeepers, he said it was a bunch of corporate monopolists.
     
  4. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    When government owns all business and industry, it is the economy. You babble on endlessly about some kind of theory that was discredited with Marx and Lenin. You are brainwashed with the English supercapitalist propaganda that socialism is communism and communism is socialism. In the English speaking world you can't have a civil argument about socialism because nobody knows what it is. England Canada Australia New Zealand all are socialist, fair capitalism with a good safety net. Us no because of the garbage GOP.
     
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  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    LOL, no they're not. I live in one of those countries, and I guarantee there is no socialism. Not one person in receipt of Govt Cheese is required to work for it. All of our 'social programs' are simply the largess of lucrative capitalism. Nice things we can afford to pay for, because we're NOT socialist.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is a black/white definition of socialism - where it can only be where the state owns everything and Gestapo is running around or nothing with nothing in between Zero state ownership /intervention - Full state ownership/intervention..

    Simply not how it works .. you can have "partial state ownership" think of it like crypto/block-chain .. we call this one taxes ..and regulation - where Gov't owns only a part of your ass .. more or less depending on the nation .. That loot goes into a collective pot - and then redistributed - a core tenet of socialism .. cept on a fractional basis rather than owning the whole show.

    Second: The false propaganda trope "Capitalism pays for it all" .. is just that.. Countries like Romaina . and numerous others did quite well .. Yugoslavia under Tito .. everyone had a job - a place to live - food on the table - healthcare ... and Capitalism didn't pay for a penny of it ..

    Does putting capitalism into the mix add some fuel to the fire .. definitely . .which is why we like it .. nice and warm .. but put too much wood on the fire and the house burns down .. Not a black vs white paradigm.

    Who has better healthcare .. US ? China? Not sure of the answer .. but know many chinese go back there to get stuff done - cheap.
    but never mind speculation .. Among first world we are middle of road in terms of care .. and we pay double - a system of healthcare extortion - thanks to capitalism ... 3.5 Trillion in 2018 Total spend -- Fed Revenue for the year was 3.6 Trillion.

    Riddle me that one - and no .. the "we do the research and give it for free" is abject nonsene .. didn't do nothing for Phizer ..and not in the biggest fairly tail could it acount for 1.7 Trillion dollars a year ...or even a fraction of it .. sans a rounding error.
     
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  7. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Yes yes you have the English speaking brainwash. Communism and socialism are totally conflated in your mind. Meanwhile you have a living wage health care daycare paid parental leave cheap college and training great infrastructure and vacations and you tax the rich. That is fair capitalism with a good safety net and that is socialism as understood by every socialist in every democracy in the world except English speaking ones. And Napoleon was slightly taller than average and never said England was a country of shopkeepers, he said they were a bunch of monopolists and corporate scumbags..... Every modern country has socialism except the United States, and incredibly unequal mess with by far the worst upward mobility anywhere now. Thanks to the GOP.

    Every foreign speaking modern country has had socialist and communist parties at the same time and the difference is democracy. The socialists won and the communists never got more than 20% and disappeared with the Soviet Union support. Welcome to the real world..
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Where did they get the money to pay for that? From the money fairies? Did they steal it?
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did you not know that communist nations generate revenue ?! - no wonder your responses are so loopy !
     
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  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    And which 'communist nations' are you referring to, of those which have well funded social programs?
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are many examples - Romania is one -- under Ceucescu .. everyone had job - house - healthcare - no poor in the streets .. life was not so bad.

    What is absurd preposterous nonsense is your claim that no revenue is generated outside of capitalism .. you so way off the farm on that claim it is not even funny.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Romania. Seriously? Wow .. that's funny Dude!

    I never said revenue cannot be raised outside of capitalism .. that appears to be something you hope I said. I asked you to explain how the very expensive social programs the First World West enjoys, are paid for.

    You either want the expensive programs we have (which means CAPITALISM), or you're happy to see be compelled to accept a significantly decreased standard of living and much less tolerance of the 'freebies' of our well-funded programs.
     
  13. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Listen to yourself. You say Europeans are just as capitalist as US, and then you call is "Trump style", even though the Euro style is what AOC is calling for, which you call socialism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  14. Libhater

    Libhater Well-Known Member

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    The Euro style is what AOC is calling for? Wow, what AOC and the likes of the crazy commie bernie sanders are calling for is the total destruction of America's capitalistic economic system. You need to take a course in Economics 101 in order to get a clue.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah you did .. you just could not understand where cash could come from in a communist economy
    "Did you not know that communist nations generate revenue ?!"

    at this point you are still in denial that communist countries generate revenue.

    Let me know when you figure out what your own position is .. that always helps.
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I don't need to, but you should definitely consider taking a course in presenting your 'arguments' since they are all over the place and contradict each other.

    If you think Euro model is same as "Trump style" capitalism, then you obviously think Trump policy was to create a cradle to grave welfare system, which is just happens to be what Bernie and AOC also want.

    You don't understand the European system, you don't understand the US system, you don't understand Trump policies and you also don't understand Bernie/AOC goals which they refer to as "Nordic model".
     
  17. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Neither Capitalism nor Socialism have ever existed in the real world. They are both economic abstractions created by academics as teaching models. Governments misapply them as justifications for various taxing schemes but they have no real meaning beyond what people think of them and that is almost entirely a function how many people are allowed how much overall comfort for how much work.

    Government that ignore the former statements in the para above and govern using mainly the latter are generally popular and last a long time
     
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  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Forms of them have existed - you can't have "Pure Socialism" or Capitalism .. is always somewhere in between. The Feudal system is an example of far along spectrum towards pure capitalism -- where you have a few elite owning near all resources and means of production.

    Notice also that this is very similar to what happens closer to pure socialism on the other side .. a few elite own near all resources and means of production.

    So oddly enough .. both extremes lead to the same place :)
     
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  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Let me know when you have that example of well-funded First World-standard social programs, funded entirely by communism.
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    They're the same thing. The names differ, but that's irrelevant.

    The only kind of socialism which doesn't end up feudalism, is voluntary - and according to collectivist principles of private property/shared labour/shared resources.
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They had a very good HC system.. fully funded by communism. What dies this have to do with your claim that comunism does not provide any economy -- any funds.. you now desperately trying to move the goalposts .. and still wrong so lame was your attempt at deflection from your ridiculously absurd claim.

    And that my friend .. is the rest of the story .. since you wandered down this rabbit hold .. what was the point you were trying to make prior - now that you have figured out that Communist Nations generated income .. not as good as Capitalist.. but it is not like they generated nothing.. .. now either get your mistake and move on or be forever tarred as :deadhorse::buggered::buggered::deadhorse:
     
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  22. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    That's your claim for me, and has no substance in reality.

    I'm an actual 'commie', dear .. and thus know only too well that communism does NOT produce the kinds of surpluses needed for the standard of welfare the First World enjoys. Only capitalism can provide that.
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Never said otherwise . and in fact you are repeating what I said to you in my last post back to me .. duh - You did indeed claim nothing or next to it - . and now are in denial of your own claim and you know it ... in fact not even backtracking to try and retain some wisp of integrity

    now what was your point ? that capitalism produces more than some communism ? as if this is news to anyone ?
     
  24. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    socialism is simply fair capitalism according to every socialist in the world. The United States is the only modern country that doesn't have a living wage health care daycare paid parental leave cheap college and training great infrastructure and vacations, And doesn't text the rich for Christ sake. Wake up and snap out of it. We used to say go west young man but that is not possible anymore so it is time to grow up and wear your adult pants. What the United States has is just a GOP giveaway to the greedy idiot rich anyway.....
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    My friend, I'm not American. I live in a country with 'socialised' medicine and all that.

    What is it that you think I should snap out of, exactly?
     

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