France raising its retirement age

Another sign of decreasing standards of living in France.

More than a million people have protested in France, fighting its president's plan to raise the retirement age by two years.
The wave of nationwide strikes halted trains, disrupted flight schools and businesses, and saw protesters throwing rocks at riot police. The new legislation means citizens will be forced to work until 64, up from 62, to receive the full pension.
The government says the pension reforms are vital to making sure the system doesn't go bust.​

flashnewsau (@flashnewsau) TikTok
France: Over 1 million march against raising retirement age, January 2023

France is the model in Europe for what socialist policies and high immigration levels will do. The French people and government are overall much more progressive socialist-leaning than the U.S., or even countries like the U.K., Canada or Australia. Taking a look at France can be like taking a look into the future, a "what if", to get some idea of what more socialist policies would be likely to result in.

Like I have explained in other threads, from a purely logical perspective, if there is not enough money to fund a program, the most mathematically logical thing to do when be to cut all payment amounts that program makes by a certain percentage.
But because of simple minds and human psychological stupidity, politically it is much easier to just raise the retirement age.

Just like in Greece during their debt crisis, when a Progressive Left-leaning government finally runs out of money, the people will riot.

It seems the system simply wasn't sustainable, but the Progressive crowds can't be reasoned with. They don't care about real sustainability. That concept is too big for their minds to handle. They just want the system to carry on as it has, whatever it takes.

 

I say get rid of state funded retirement. It’s all crap compared to personal funded retirement

 

I think with the Left and Right taking hard stances on either side, that is the reason reasonable and pragmatic compromises do not happen. An analogy is a tug-of-war with both sides pulling, and eventually, over time, something gives way, and something falls into place. It may not be the most optimal solution, but it was the only solution possible under the political circumstances, despite the fact that both sides could have benefited more from some other compromise which would have been more logical.

The thing is, the Left kept demanding government spending from a program, despite the fact that it was not sustainable, and all the politicians were too cowardly to do anything about it or deal with the problem. Easier to pass the hot potato on to the next politician and let them deal with the problem later, at the last moment right before the deadline.

It's kind of analogous to an economic bubble. Keep handing something out, and eventually the people will just come to take it for granted, as if it were an unchangeable constant. People think there will exist wealth in a place that does not actually exist.

 

Lol. 64 from 62. Hardly even old age.

 

Another problem is one of demographics.
France has an aging population, with a lower percent of young people to pay in. France has in part tried to address this problem with immigration, but the problem is the average immigrant population does not earn as much as the ethnic French population, thus cannot pay into the system as much. So there were some false assumptions made there. (Indeed, a lot of immigrants overall consume more state resources than they pay in, with no one keeping track of the balance)

Of course part of the reason the French have been having fewer children in the first place is because they feel they cannot afford them (or afford children while maintaining their standard of living). So trying to force more population into the equation is not necessarily helping things.

 

I also love the fact that it is “a sign France is failing” whereas all the A”first world” countries are battling an ageing population and an extended life span - with the exception of America

 

But isn't that typical communist tactics? Trying to force people to work, rather than just paying them in proportion to their work.

This sounds full of bureaucratic stupidity.
An idea that sounds good in someone's mind, but doesn't actually make logical mathematical sense.

 

I missed that part. Can you please point out where people are forced to do anything...

 

They are "forced" through tax penalties and that money not being returned to them unless they meet certain conditions.

Rather than a sensible plan of, say, withholding a certain amount of money on your income every year and then gradually giving that money back to you after reaching a certain age.

You'll notice the French government is changing the rules in the middle of the game. People were taxed with the understanding that they could start getting that money back when they reached the age of 62.

Yes, the government doesn't have enough money to pay them back the full amount they were expecting, but instead of just reducing the amount, they want to delay it.

I don't think the French pension system will pay someone while they are still working, so by denying them a pension at age 62 they are "forcing" them to work.

 

It turns out when you take on a bunch of new welfare cases someone has to pay for it.

 

I do not know, whether or not the standard of living, in France, is declining, as you suggest, but I definitely know that a raising of the retirement age, is not a sign of it-- it is a sign of people living longer! This is the reason that our own Social Security program, faces problems in the future. The mistake of Macron was to raise the age by two years, all at once, if that was not absolutely necessary (and if it had been that urgent a problem, his mistake had been letting it get to that point). We will have to do the same thing, ourselves, but the smart way to do it, is only by one month, per year. So, if full Social Security benefits come at age 67 this year, next year they kick in at 67 & 1 month. The following year, 67 and 2 months, and so forth. This might cause a little bit of grumbling, among those who are close to retirement, but waiting a few more months is far easier to swallow, than two more years! Though, by this method, the benchmark does ultimately become years later, it will be only for those who are still far from reaching retirement age. And its small, incremental increases, would not elicit the same outrage, as would a larger change, all at once.

That is not the most logical thing to do, from a practical perspective, if it will underfund a person's retirement. Many will have only those of funds, on which to live; it kind of defeats the whole purpose, if they are insufficient, to cover basic living expenses. It is, ironically, your plan, which would lower the living standards, for people of retirement age.

 

Sorry but what is the retirement age in America?

 

As usual

WTF are you talking about?

 

Well, first, I would point out that it is still too early to tell if people in France are going to live longer, since the level of immigration France has taken in over the last 30 years is so large, but it is true that the White people in France (who make up most of the older generation) are living longer.

Average life expectancy in 1990 was 76.61
Average life expectancy in 2022 was 83
source: France Life Expectancy 1950-2023 | MacroTrends

If we assume retirement age at 62, then that does represent a 43.7% increase in retirement years over that 32 year span of time.

 

What's the matter, Bowerbird? The media you watch didn't tell you about it?

 

Are you unaware of their country has been flooded with indigent migrants?

 

Illegal migrants storm Paris City Hall demanding free stuff
https://nationalfile.com/insurrecti...aris-city-hall-demanding-free-accommodations/

Video footage of the Paris city hall storming shows dozens of fighting-age, third-world male migrants forcing open the building’s doors, as others hop small barricades to let themselves in.
Several French left-wing activists are seen in the video documenting the insurrection with cell phone cameras and seemingly directing the actions of the migrants who, upon entering city hall, broke out into chants, demanding to receive welfare and "free accommodations".
Notably, no police or law enforcement personnel are seen defending the building.​

 

Aaaaaaaand they are NOT supporting themselves??

https://www.oecd.org/migration/OECD Migration Policy Debates Numero 2.pdf

 

Oh! Someone has been dabbling in far right rubbish again??

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-file/

I miss the days of Stormfront - at least then you could spot the twaddle straight away

 

No because my media does not include far right conspiracy theory twonkerism

 

And I suppose you want us to think that what you posted there actually tells the whole story?

Why don't you go look up the cost of illegal immigration?

 

The government has refused to collect the data specifically looking at this question.

Why would they do that if they did not already know the answer?
Because if the answer was as you claim, surely they would want to show that to the public and prove it.

 

Proof of your claim is where?

 

Why don’t you do that and present it?

 

No one likes it when retirement age is pushed back. We have done it here in US for the same reason, and as to today its much higher than the 64 proposed in France. I am actually surprised they had it at 62, which in US is considered "early retirement".

France doesn't rank that high on immigration. They are not in Top-20 and there are 17 Western nations ahead of them. As for socialist policies, I assume you mean social services, - and France has typical Western European system with fairly strong social welfare system.
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