God created sin - Change my mind

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Maquiscat, Apr 13, 2024.

  1. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    I'm having this discussion on another forum and I thought I'd bring it here and see what you all have to say on the issue. This discussion is running on the premise of the Christian religion, and it is acknowledged that other religions or atheism could have other premises that could produce different results. Let's keep them to other threads.

    God is the creator of sin, and only God can be.

    Sin is impossible without free will. If there is no free will then any action we take will be directed and forced. Therefore, it cannot be a sin, since the act would be directed by God. By the very act of creating free will, so too was sin created, because now the ability to defy God exists.

    Further, God is the one who defines what is and isn't a sin. This very act of creating the definitions of sin is also, by default, the creation of sin, or sins if you prefer. Without that definition, a given act cannot be a sin, for only God can determine something to be a sin. Any discussion on whether something is a sin declared by God or one claimed/assumed by man is for a separate thread.

    Show me where the logic is wrong. None of this takes away from God being holy, or good or whatever. Further the creation of sin holds no bearing on whether or not a human commits a sin.
     
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  2. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The logic is sound. But also I think its missing an important point. Without free will, there can be no sin, but also there can be no virtue.

    It seems to me that this question boils down to: would we prefer to live in a world where everything is perfect because we have no choice or will and the alternative is just impossible?

    I'm of the opinion that God's greatest gift to us is free will. We have the same power of choice as God does Himself. With this we can become like God. Or we can choose to not.

    Without free will, we're just robots, and I think our existence would be pointless.

    Additionally, our free will, and those who choose to use it for evil, are the primary driving force of adversity, and adversity is the primary driving force of advancement, whether it be spiritual, social and technological. We could've chosen to remain as God's 'pets' in the garden of eden, forever pampered and kept. We were allowed to choose the hard path, to go out and make our own way, and now we're flying around in space.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2024
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  3. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Nope, man created gods as an authoritative figure and sin as a way to establish social order. The successful religions base their morality on the golden rule with variations and what is sinful changes over time. Christians disagree about what is sinful, as in abortion, homosexuality. It is guided by current opinion, not an imagined omniscient overlord.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
  4. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Evil is the driving force of man's advancement? What an ugly (and unique) philosophy.
     
  5. Hawkins

    Hawkins Active Member

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    God created freewill, all left is mathematical. Freewill at the end, means one is given the ability to choose to oppose God by sinning, while God is completely sin-incompatible.

    God's goal is to create an eternity where 3 parties, namely angels and humans and God, can live in harmony with happiness. The Eden story actually shows that it doesn't work if angels and humans are all taken to Heaven the eternity directly. They would sin to the extent unbearable to the completely sin-incompatible God. A harmony cannot be reached. God thus set up an open standard called Law followed by a Final Judgment to determine who shall be living with God in eternity. Law is like a promise from the sin-incompatible God that if one (with free will) can pass the Judgment of Law God would bear with him in eternity no matter what. Law actually defines who shall enter Heaven without an eternal harmony being broken.

    By assuming a mathematical Normal Distribution and with the effect of freewill alone, the mathematical Expected Outcome is, 2/3 angels and 1/3 or less humans will pass the Judgment of Law to enter Heaven with humans given a much larger degree of freewill.

    However other than the effect of freewill, another factor jammed in. The much more intelligent angels (i.e., crafty snake) can impose a negative effect upon the much less intelligent humans, causing a result that no human can actually pass the Judgment of Law.

    Under the circumstance an as enforced by Law, humans as a whole shall be wiped out which became the Noah story. It means humans shall be removed unless God can provide a lawful/legal resolution. Needless to say Jesus is to fulfill this demand of the Law and would make a self-sacrifice at a certain point of humanity.

    With Jesus that, the effect of the angelic beings is "offset". Humans, in accordance of Law, can dodge the Judgment of Law and now are subject to a Judgment of Covenant. As a result, the promise becomes if a human can pass the Judgment of Covenant God would bear with him in eternity no matter what just like a Shepherd to His sheep.

    In summary,
    With the effect of freewill alone, 2/3 angels with 1/3 or less humans will be saved through the Judgment of Law. To humans this is referred to as a narrow gate.

    With the effect of angels influencing humans, no human is savable. It is said that Satan effectively keeps every single human captive.

    With God the Son Jesus' self-sacrifice, humans are not judged by the Judgment of Law but a Judgment of Covenant instead, where 1/3 or less humans will be saved, that is through the same narrow gate.

    The behavior of angels and humans follows a mathematical normal distribution where Law and covenants are to remove some of them such that an eternal harmony and happiness can be achieved for angels and humans to live with a sin-incompatible God in a forever realm. In a nutshell, it's a mathematical necessity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
  6. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    God did not create sin. God did not create darkness either. Darkness is absence of light. Cold is absence of warmth. Sin is absence of God. Free will was not 'created' either, it is simply absence of a puppet master who dictates and enforces moral law. God wants people to worship him out of their own free will, not because they don't have a choice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
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  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would say that opposition to evil is the driving force of man's advancement. But I spose either way is still technically accurate, since you cant have one without the other.
     
  8. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    If God is the creator of everything, then by default He had to create sin as well.

    Without one there is not the other. God in creating reality creates both the light and the dark, the warmth and the cold.

    This cannot be. By such a logic, since a child is born without knowing God, it is thus absent from and of God. And yet we call it sin free. No, sin has to be an action, a choice, one that violates what God dictates as sinless and matches that which He calls sinful.

    And to have that ability, God had to create it into man. He could have made man with or without the ability to think and reason and decide. Creating man with that ability is the creation of free will. Without free will, there is no morality. An AI, as we know it today at least, cannot make moral decisions because it was not created with free will. Anything it does is free from morality.

    .
    Agreed, and as such God had to create in his humans, and angels as well, free will. Which means that he has to create sin. In creating light He creates darkness. In creating warmth, He creates cold. In creating free will He creates sin. That doesn't mean He likes it, but it is necessary for the existence of free will.
     
  9. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, dark and cold is the default. It does not need to be created, and neither does sin

    It is an action, and no one can go through life without comiting such action

    No, He simply did not create a mechanism to deprive people of free will.

    Darkness, cold, sin etc as default. Sin entered the world through rebellion against God's law. What would happen if sun would go out? It would become dark and cold. If God went out, we would become like animals without conscience, - like hyenas who eat other animals alive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
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  10. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    To my thinking man advances in two ways and one is technology. There was fire, the wheel, electricity, antibiotics and on and on, advances not driven by evil (you could cherry pick warfare technology).

    The other is philosophy or the social contract. The biggest advance is the diminishing of man's imagined hierarchy. That includes things like not being separated by social class, women's equal rights, civil rights, religious tolerance, humane treatment of animals, protecting the Earth and on and on. You may cynically believe those advancements are driven by evil, but I am not a cynic.
     
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  11. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Why does what is sinful change? Was He wrong before?
     
  12. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You must've missed where I specified that its opposition to evil that drives human advancement...

    Also opposition to hardship, which can just be caused by nature and isnt 'good' or 'evil.' But certainly some of the things you mentioned are advances made specifically to oppose tyranny (which is evil).
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
  13. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    "sin" is part of a religious construct., used to define unacceptable behavior of MANKIND. Man created religion and the various beliefs that come with it. "sin" is an outdated term as humans have evolved into a higher understanding of psychology of man. Unacceptable behavior can be explained by psychology. The concept of "sin" is also part of how beliefs can try and control people with the concept of punishment. Rewards in "heaven" and punishment in "hell" is all part of this ideology.
    Reality is that people are people who don't always adhere to the social norms. Some can't for psychological reasons. Some don't because of personality disorders. Some can be treated ; some can't. Humans are capable of remorse......for the most part. Those that are not are psychologically damaged ( sociopathic)
     
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  14. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Terms like "good" and "evil" are extremely judgmental. (as applied to humans) what is important is that we as humans aim to understand others , regardless of their behavior....and if their behavior is problematic, see about getting some therapy. counselling for them.
     
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  15. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its true, God even says we should avoid judging others. But I feel confident and justified in labeling certain people as 'evil' such as Hitler, Ishii, Savile... perhaps they accepted forgiveness in the last moments of their lives, but their intentions and effects they had on the world were certainly evil.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2024
  16. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

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    What's sin?
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    So God created people with the ability to defy him. Are you surprised by this?
     
  18. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    In the Christian since, because that's what we are talking about, disobedience to God's command.
     
  19. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    It is a religious construct that defines negative and unacceptable (or "immoral ) behavior as outlined by various strict religions who focus on reward and punishment .
    It is a very narrow view that demonstrates little understanding of human behavior *and psychology of)
     
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  20. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    As in the ten commandments...? These were defined by man.... a man who was highly enlightened for the times and had a great awareness of human conduct . This high level of awareness/ consciousness INSPIRED this man to outline some rules for humans to live by.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2024
  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "It seems to me that this question boils down to: would we prefer to live in a world where everything is perfect because we have no choice or will and the alternative is just impossible?"

    is that what heaven is?
     
  22. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Isn't "heaven" (and "hell") a religious construct too?? It assumes that there is a life after death. We have no evidence of such . But the construct has been useful in controlling people's minds...and thinking. Creating a fear in some of some punitive place ..is very powerful to those that "believe" all this.
    Then those that are so determined to get to "heaven" live with anxiety about how "good " they are.

    Many of the religious constructs are quite damaging to the human psychology.
     
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  23. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good question. I often wonder whether Ill be a good fit in heaven or not. It sounds kinda boring. I like the sound of Valhalla, combat all day, then the casualties come back to life for feasting and lovemaking all night. Rinse and repeat. The problem with Valhalla is they're training for the battle of Ragnarok, which cant actually be won. Well, it does preserve one male and female child who survive to repopulate humanity, so I guess thats a win. Then the cycle restarts?

    But still prolly better than being stuck alone for eternity, or being stuck with coniving sociopaths that enjoy suffering for all eternity, the two most common descriptions of Hell.
     
  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    Well no the commands of Christ since we are talking about Christianity. And Christians view Christ as God. And according to Christianity Moses didn't create the ten commandments God did.
     
  25. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    What if three is no after life anywhere : heaven or hell or ??? . What if death is just the end of life. Full stop. What would that be like?? It might "feel" the same as when one is under a general anesthetic........except one does not wake up. IE: No feelings. Nothing. That might be a lot more probable than the various beliefs..(which no one can prove, one way or another )
     

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