God created sin - Change my mind

The Apostle John was long dead by the time Revelations was written.. the text of which should never have been included in Cannon .. and in fact wasn't included until later .. Eusebius .. the fellow tasked with putting the first NT bible together .. stated that Revelations was spurious and so did not include it.

 

especially after being martyred along with James and Peter and all the other disciples~ 60-70AD

 

There were no forests near Jerusalem. The current forest was planted in the 1950. Wood was scarce in Jesus time.
During Jesus lifetime there had been several leaders who had caused the Romans problems and they had been dealt with by force. Jesus was never a problem to the Romans or he would have had the same treatment. He was simply a problem to the Jewish religious heirarchy.
You really think - despite all the Romans did to him with the lashing, crucifying etc - Jesus survived.
You really understand little. Pilate is said to have told the Jews 'I find no fault in this man'. They replied 'then you are no friend of Caesar'. Pilate could could not allow the Jews to complain to Caesar as his actions so far in his Governorship had been often frowned upon by Rome. So he had Jesus crucified. to appeasae them. Pilate was a cruel, vicious man and eventualy his cruelty caught up with him and he was deposed.

 

It is counter intuitive to suggest that the differences in beliefs and religions are somehow validated by the concept of one true God. That would be to say that the call to duty justifies treason, or that one can be saved in his/her sins rather than from them. It is bigotry towards the divine, for the sake of the love of evil. But you're entitled to your beliefs and reasonings.

 

Every Bible. Where's your evidence?

 

Thank you for these comments Trevorw2539.......... Obviously you have been doing quite a bit of research into all of this over these past ten years or so......

If you are up for it.... I've taken more than a hundred online courses by a near death experiencer who met Yeshua - Jesus face to face during his brush with death......

his testimony is so powerful that i personally cannot imagine somebody simply making up such an account that fits with all the research that I did into the
paranormal and theology since the 1970's when I was a teenager.

Two of his courses are free of charge... one of his courses is his NDE account itself....

www.KevinZadai.com/

The free course on his NDE itself is called "Heavenly Visitation."

 

If the story has any credibility and knowing the effects of the lashing - often near to death - and then the effects of the crucifixion and the rigid discipline of the Roman soldiers to carry out there arders - Jesus died.
. For example, attempting to explain Jesus’ resurrection naturally, many rationalist thinkers in the 18th and 19th centuries put forward the theory that Jesus only appeared to die on the cross. Despite Strauss’ criticisms of Christianity, he was highly critical of this naturalistic theory. Strauss argued that it would be “impossible” for Jesus to somehow “creep out of the tomb” after having just been beaten and crucified and give his disciplines “the impression that he was a Conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of Life, an impression which lay at the bottom of their future ministry”; this type of resuscitation “could by no possibility have changed their sorrow into enthusiasm, have elevated their reverence into worship.


One of the first major expansions of Strauss’ argument would appear in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in the 1986 article “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ” by William D. Edwards, Wesley J. Gabel, and Floyd E. Hosmer.6 At the time of this publication, the most common hypotheses on the manner of Jesus’ death included pulmonary embolism, cardiac rupture, suspension trauma, asphyxiation, fatal stab wound, and shock.3 Pulmonary embolism has been proposed as the mechanism of Jesus’ death due to the high prevalence of hereditary thrombophilia (e.g., Factor V Leiden).3

However, the more widely accepted medical hypotheses for Jesus’ death are cardiac rupture, asphyxiation, and shock. These medical hypotheses are based on accounts from the Gospels and our modern understanding of traumatic injuries. The torture of Jesus from the Roman centurions produced extensive blunt and penetrating trauma to Jesus’ body. The large amount of blood loss would have put Jesus in a vulnerable state in the moments leading to his crucifixion. Once nailed to the cross, the prolonged immobilization and pressure on the thoracic cavity could well have led to a slow asphyxiation. Regardless, the piercing of Jesus’ heart by the Roman centurion induced a fatal injury to Jesus in the form of a cardiopulmonary effusion or cardiac tamponade; however, the spear wound to the chest would likely have been done postmortem. Therefore, it is believed that the manner of Jesus’ death is “multifactorial; multiple blunt, and occasionally penetrating trauma, which led slowly to death by this mechanism.”3 In other words, most clinicians believed that the combination of physical abuse Jesus experienced before and during the crucifixion contributed to his ultimate demise on the cross.
National Library of Medicine.

https://beresolute.org/the-anatomical-and-physiological-details-of-death-by-crucifixion/
55 anatomical reasons why Jesus died

And you believe he recovered?

 

a

If the story has any credibility then he survived as recorded for other crucifixions, and was resuscitated by Joseph and Nicodemus. And so endeth the lesson. Amen Amen
https://www.reviewofreligions.org/1...e-on-the-cross-a-cardiologists-perspective-2/

My father and other Slaves of the Son of Heaven were treated far far worse than Jesus, and their treatment lasted for over three years and not just six hours or so. And when I worked in the hospital at Vung Tau 54 years ago many of our patients had much more trauma than he did, with some requiring ten or more units of blood before and during their operations.

 

Were you there? If not then what evidence do you have to support your claim that there were no forests near Jerusalem and that therefore there were no crucifixions of Jews at Jerusalem including Jesus?

IOW Jesus was executed by the Romans as a scape goat to avoid the crucifixons of thousands of Jews as occurred 35 years or so before, and as described in John 11:47-48.

 

Were you there when the book of Revelation was written?

 

READ WHAT I SAID. I didn't say there were no crucifixions. Wood was scarce so they used the same crosses for many executions. If there had been plenty of cedarwood in the area why did they have to transport cedars from Lebanon centuries earlier for use in building the Temple
The Romans had no problems with Jesus. Why don't you just study Palestine of the time. And your Bible. Pilate - the ROMAN Governor said 'I find no fault in this man'. Why he executed Jesus I've already explained. If you knew the times and the people you would not make so many mistakes.
You've already said Jesus was not executed but survived. Make your mind up. .
You keep quoting what the Sanhedrin supposedly said. How do you know what the Sanhedrin said? Do you believe in the miracles of Jesus? What can we actually trust from the Gospels. You agree the Nativity stories are made up. Miracles are simply added to make Jesus divine. 'John' wasn't written within decades of the Sanhedrin so how did he know what Gamaliel said. when the gospel attributed to him was written decades later.
The real reason the religious rulers wanted Jesus out of the way was the fact he was expossing their hypocrisy. Show me one instance where the Romans interfered with Jesus ministry. They only became involved when the Jewish Religious Heirarchy involved them. And no. They weren't among the Temple Guard who arrested Jesus. They had other things to do. This was Passover.when Jews from all over the world of that time would descend on Jerusalem. There was always trouble from these visitors and the Romans kept more soldiers than normal on the streets for this period. Their main concern was keeping the peace.

 

Jesus didn't have the medication or doctors the knowledsge your people had..

 

And since Jesus even walked there he was no where near death when he was tied to the scaffold.

IOW he survived the crucifixion and was resuscitated by Joseph and Nicodemus with the help of 30 kilograms of herbal medications. Which is why the donkey rider was able to visit his gang of 12 shortly after, and go fishing with them. Or so the story goes.

Yep, he obviously recovered since John 19:34 clearly describes that his heart was still functioning when Joseph and Nicodemus untied him. https://www.reviewofreligions.org/1...e-on-the-cross-a-cardiologists-perspective-2/
And there is nothing in the bible about the "King of the Jews" being pierced through the heart when the Roman pricked him with a spear to test his reflexes anyway.

 

What is your evidence to support your claim that there weren't trees growing around Jerusalem then?

That's your choice if you don't believe what the bible says about the "King of the Jews" being a scape goat to avoid the potential crucifixion of thousands of Jews who had flown in from around the world, and that the donkey rider survived his crucifixion and was resuscitated and then went fishing when he recuperated.

In the same way that I believe in the similar miracles we performed when I worked in the hospital in Vung Tau 54 years ago. And that he did a good conjuring trick with some previously hidden wine at a wedding (John 2).

Yep since those stories were written nearly a century after he was born.

And how do you know that the donkey rider even existed.

But how do you know unless you were there?
And if the donkey rider actually went fishing with his mates (John 21), then he obviously survived his crucifixion.Amen Amen.

 

John 19:39 says that Joseph and Nicodemus used 30 Kg of herbal medications including Aloe vera to help his recuperation before he went fishing, since his injuries weren't life threatening, such as one of our patients who was choppered in with a bullet through the aorta but who still survived for 20 minutes with the help of about 10 units of O negative blood.

 

No and neither were you. What a stupid idiotic point.

 

So why did you claim that the disciple John actually wrote the book of Revelation about the future downfall of the Roman Empire?

 

Because John says he's the one telling the vision. Read it. Duh!

 

So when did John of Patmos write the book of Revelation about the future downfall of the Roman Empire?

 

Table 1.
Scholarly views on the manner of Christ’s death

Scholarly View Citations: first author and year (chronological) How Jesus died.
Asphyxiation LeBec, 192528; Whitaker, 193529; Mödder, 194830; Hynek, 195131; Furlong, 195232; Barbet, 196333; DePasquale, 196334; Bucklin, 197035; Lumpkin, 197836; Wassener, 197937; Jewell, 197938; Zias, 198539; Potter, 198622; Edwards, 19866; Blum, 198640; Thurston, 198741; Leinster, 199142; Bernardo, 199143; Porter, 199144; Holoubek, 199545; Metherell, 199846; Retief, 200347; Papaloucas, 200448; Eduard, 201749
Chiefly asphyxiation with secondary factors Sava, 195850; Davis, 196551; Miller, 201352; Bordes, 202053
Cardiovascular trauma Stroud, 184754; Bersgma, 194855; Ball, 198956; Wright, 199157
Shock Tenney, 196458; Zugibe, 200559; Bergeron, 2012,3 201860
Coagulopathy Brenner, 200561
Suspension trauma Schulte, 196362; Bishop, 200663
Syncope Warren, 198624
Jesus did not die. Davies, 199125; Ytrehus, 200264; Ledochowski, 2012,8 20148,65
Seems most believe Jesus did die.

Many details have been discussed and a view seems to be coalescing here into a probable outcome. There were approximately twice as many asphyxiation and asphyxiation-dominant views as all the other options combined (e.g., cardiovascular trauma, shock, coagulopathy, suspension trauma, and syncope). In general, the mechanism for the asphyxiation has been approached through multiple angles using both cadavers and living persons. The principal mechanism is believed to be a combination of hypoxia from restriction of the chest cavity to expand from increased stress on the upper extremities and chest as well as the position of the body when nailed to the cross. Other postmortem arguments (such as shock or suspension trauma) have been developed, which are believed to contribute to the underlying cause of asphyxiation. Only three responses argued against Jesus dying on the cross.

The postmortem Roman spear wound to Jesus’ body that is recorded in John 19:33-35 is also affirmed by the Roman writer Quintilian (Declamationes 6.9), who stated that after crucifixions, the executioner did not forbid to families the bodies of the victims for burial after those bodies had first been struck or pierced (Latin, percussus). As Cook attested, the Latin term here usually involves the use of a weapon such as a sword, ax, or spear.26 Hengel also listed additional death-blows for crucifixion victims.27 The most crucial item to note here is that for both Quintilian and John, the purpose of the piercing with a spear or another weapon was to ensure that the crucified victim was actually deceased, as opposed to the article by Lloyd Davies and Lloyd Davies.


CONCLUSION: THE CAUSE OF JESUS’ DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION
Many medical and other researchers have considered the nature of Jesus’ death by crucifixion. After having reviewed the relevant details, two summary points are worth highlighting. First, there appear to be twice as many asphyxiation and asphyxiation-dominant views as all the other medical options combined. The medical reasoning here proceeds from multiple angles—such as Miller’s comments on the exceptional cell oxygen loss beyond just the breathing difficulties alone combining to make asphyxiation the major cause of Jesus’ death. The anatomy of the chest muscles and their potential effect on the lungs of someone in these positions also contribute in large part here. Second, two other strong postmortem arguments have been developed (the Roman chest wound plus Strauss’ argument), both of which clearly argue for a sure death even when an exact cause is only probably known. Thus, even if it is judged that a precise cause of Jesus’ death is difficult to determine, the fact of Jesus’ death from crucifixion is established historically by, among other things, the post-death Roman spear plus Strauss’ exceptionally well-regarded critique. Taken together, these two factors lead to the probable conclusion on the dominant cause of Jesus’ death, backed by the even more clearly established fact of Jesus’ death. In short, historians have long agreed that Jesus died; medical specialists now seem to be growing in agreement on how Jesus died.

 

https://www.reviewofreligions.org/1...e-on-the-cross-a-cardiologists-perspective-2/

IOW like the cardiologist, the bible also says that Jesus survived his crucifixion since his heart was still functioning (John 19:34), which is why Joseph and Nicodemus removed him and then resuscitated him with the help of 30 kg of herbal medications including Aloe vera (John 19:39-40), and he was able to go fishing with his mates after recuperating (John 21). And given that rotting corpses only magically come to life three days after death in fantasy stories such as Dracula etc.

And I'm not the slightest bit interested in reading about fake comments that he was speared through the heart which is not even mentioned in the gospels anyway, and that he magically repaired his rotting corpse and heart three days later.

 

And if the "King of the Jews" actually died from his crucifixion after only six hours, then his corpse would have eventually rotted away since embalming is prohibited under Jewish Law.

 

Not familiar with that book. We're talking about the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

 

The idea wasn't to see how long he could live. According to his own gospel, it was to lay down his life and take it back up again. What you believe or disbelieve is irrelevant. What matters is what you know. Since you weren't there to examine him or witness anything, then you don't know anything. And all that we have of the matter are the testimonies of those who were there.

As for me, I know by the visitation of his spirit that God lives, and that the Apostles are his servants whom he has called to testify of him. So I know that Jesus was the Messiah because God does not lie. It is reasonable to conclude that to live towards an accounting is trustworthiness. But to live as if there were no tomorrow, is to be reckless and deceived. Even the unbelieving tread lightly at mention of this concept, throwing up walls of excuses for the sake of deliverance. But by whose hand might they be delivered when it is not by their own hand. Do they command heaven and hell?

 

Good grief this is irrational and hypocritical. you tell other poster "You were not there to Witness" .. then go on to explain that there are servants who Jesus called. which is completely bonkers given you were not there to witness this .. and so while Jesus does not lie .. your testimony about him is false.

You were not there .. you have no idea if Jesus even existed .... by your own testimony you are condemned.

You then claim "God does not lie" .. Which God does not lie ? .. you know not who your God and don't know of any scripture from this God .. unable to tall one God from the other but you tell us this God has not lied ? If you don't know what this God says .. then how do you know whether or not this God lied ?

Do we follow the law to kill the child for the sin of the idolatrous parents ... or do we observe the law saying we are not to kill the child for the sin of the Parents - each is to be punished according to his own sin.

Which Law is the lie ? To Kill or not to Kill .. that is the question .. and then we figure out if yours is the God of the Lie .. God of the Truth .. or God of Neither .. after which we will admire the crucifix.