God on Trial: Sexism

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Distraff, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    This thread is in response to the claim that God is sexist, if the bible is God's word. This thread is not about whether sexism is right or wrong but whether God is sexist, and if he is sexist, in what way is he sexist and how sexist is he.

    Just for fun, before you post, pick the status defendant or prosecutor.
     
  2. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Prosecutor Wolverine, Missionary of Maynard at your service.

    If the books are in fact god's word, then yes, sexism is totally justified. Woman are to submit to their husbands, women are second class citizens with second class rights.

    I would certainly enjoy some of the justifications for sexism in the bible.

    Me be the godless heathen I am, the conspirator against religion and apple pie, I believe that women are equal to men and should enjoy the same rights.
     
  3. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suppose it's how you define "Sexism" or "Sexist" that colors your response.
     
  4. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    1 Peter 3
    1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

    Is this sexist enough for you?
     
  5. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The wording is not appealing in the modern sense, but the sentiment--the essence of it is logical as a guide to relationship among husbands and wives. The husband is advised to do likewise in the following verse--less detailed, but the men are not left without admonition. No--I do not believe there is anything "demeaning" in that admonition. That is my litmus for sexism. Different is not demeaning. And I'm not going to judge cultural norms of ancient societies by modern cultural values--that's foolish, IMO.
     
  6. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Neither defender nor prosecutor.

    It's not a legal trial. Himself is not subject to the law of man, as far as I know. I refuse to accept the authority of your Court.

    And...God is not sexist. Man is.
     
    Felicity and (deleted member) like this.
  7. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Swensson, your honour, outside expert on searching the internet for definitions.

    Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the application of the belief or attitude that there are characteristics implicit to one's gender that indirectly affect one's abilities in unrelated areas.

    Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

    Okay, outside expert is a bit lame. Turns out that placing impact in definitions and proper language use shifts you to the prosecutor side.
     
  8. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    No, men are never told to submit. They are told to love their wives.

    Sexism
    1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
    2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.


    If you don't think sexism is demeaning, that doesn't suddenly make the sexism disappear. If you have no problem with sexism, all right then. But that is not what this debate is about.
     
  9. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, not using the word "submit." However, in Ephesians 5, men are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Jesus submitted willingly and with docility to torture and death for the church. Hence, Women being told to submit and respect their husbands seems like a cake-walk compared to what men are charged to do.

    That's not what I said--I said the exact opposite and that the quote you gave is NOT demeaning.
     
  10. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Sexism does not necessarily have to be demeaning although it often is. The bible tells wives to be submissive to their husbands. What if I told you to be submissive to me because of your gender? How would you feel? This might as well be the very definition of sexism. What if I set up an example for you with a woman named Sarah who called her husband "my lord?" These verses glorify sexism.

    It is a little weird for you to say that it is hard for men to love their wives. Plus that is irrelevant. Women are told to submit. That is sexism, whether men are told to love their wives or not.
     
  11. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    OK. Your talk about God is sexist. Being male and growing up in Christianity, i did not notice it until it was brought to my attention. So I sincerely hope you understand where I am coming from. For the sake of argument let's assume that God exists. Now, why do we try to force a gender on God? Does God have a penis? It seems like it would be perfectly ok to me to say God is genderless, so we would refer to God as an it (not a hermaphrodite) but as a genderless being. Otherwise we are saying the most powerful thing/being in existence is.....MALE! And there is no justification for such a view, especially when woman are part of the human experience also :p.
     
  12. montra

    montra New Member

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    Here is my take, what other ancient religion named two holy books after women, namely the book of Ruth and Esther? There are about 188 references to women in the Bible, what other ancient text does this? Jesus interacted personally to about 24 women in the gospels, what other religious leader gave such attention to the lesser sex? Women in the Bible have been prophetesses, judges, military leaders, and one is on record as saving the entire Jewish race. It was a woman who first met with Jesus when he arose. Why? Women led the Christian movement before it was embraced by the establishment via Catholocism as they met privately in homes. The women led the religious meetings.

    In short, it is a man's world and probably always will be, but the Bible clearly challenges this trend, even though it acknowledges the discrepency.

    Edit: I refuse to reveal my identity as either prosecutor or defendant. :)
     
  13. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    There are a few major women in the bible, but there are far far more male prophets and heros so your argument from that direction is pretty weak. I have presented verses which directly make sexist religious laws. We cannot simply ignore them.
     
  14. montra

    montra New Member

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    I said compare them to other ancient texts, especially religious ones. Clearly the Bible is revolutionary in this regard.
     
  15. montra

    montra New Member

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    I will add that the Koran was written hundreds of years after the Bible, yet it seems to have gone back in time in terms of its views on women even before the Bible had been written.
     
  16. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I am fine with that. You seem to admit that the bible is sexist but not as sexist as the time it was in. That a legitimate argument if you can provide evidence to back up that assertion. It doesn't matter anyway. God is sexist, and that is what counts.
     
  17. montra

    montra New Member

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    God was not fine with divorce either, but he recognized the condition of mankind and made provisions for it. Likewise, it is a man's world, it is simply the condition of mankind. Does God like the fact that women are being abused and mistreated because of this fact? I say he is and has tried to create effect change according to his wisdom. In fact, look at societies heavily influenced by Christianity and compare them to Islam. If you ask me, God has brought about change.
     
  18. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I certainly see where you are coming from although I disagree that male dominance was ever necessary. Many ancient societies were actually matriarchial. You act as if there was nothing God could do to stop sexism in the past, however he is omnipotent you know.

    I am getting way off track here. Whether sexism is ever justified or not doesn't matter to me in this debate, so much as whether God is sexist.
     
  19. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Well, I agree that God is sexist, saying that he isn't just does not make sense, but, as you also imply, that is without laying any "blame" in the word. Since God can define anything he wants to be ok and good, I suppose there is nothing bad about it.
     
  20. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    Through the life source of the word the hugging mother love of God came to us and nurtured our lives, helps us and guides us in danger as deep and tender love.

    This sentence was spoken in a similiar way from Hildegard von Bingen (1098-1179). If Hildegard von Bingen criticiced something or someone - even if it was the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire - the people listened to her words and tried to change something in their own behavior.

    http://youtu.be/lMxBpPcoWf0
     
  21. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you give me an example of when sexism ISN'T demeaning?

    You are not my husband--we have no covenanted relationship. Men and women in the marriage relationship make agreements as to responsibilities to one another. You would have no right to say that to me because there is no relationship.

    They were in a covenanted relationship. BTW--Abraham was submissive to Sarah. She told him what to do with regard to Hagar on more than one occasion.
    No, they really don't when you understand the context.

    I didn't say that. I said they are called to willingly give their lives to their wives as Christ died for the church. How is that not complete submission?
     
  22. montra

    montra New Member

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    Christ was onced asked about marriage in the world today and if it would apply to the next world. He said that there is no male and female in the next world, implying that sex is a temperal state. In other words, we are equals.

    I suppose you can continue to malign the God of the Bible whom you disdain but you do so only by ignoring its blatant truths.
     
  23. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    That is not the point. The point is, that making one person submit to the other is pretty serious, e.g. putting me in authority over you in my example. When this is done because of gender, it is sexism.

    There is no evidence he was submissive to her. He simply took her advice in that case. That does not mean he is generally submissive to her in his entire marriage to her. In fact that the good book says that she called him, "my lord." Is that demeaning enough for you?

    They are devoting themselves to their wives, but they are doing this by leading their wives. An analogy is when a parent devoted himself to his daughter. That does not mean he is submitting himself to her.
     
  24. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I am not attacking God in this thread. I am simply stating that he is sexism. Could you show me where it says we will be genderless in the next life?
     
  25. kscott13

    kscott13 Active Member

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    In my opinion women being submissive to men in a family unit is not such a bad thing, in fact it's the way it works best Bible or no, and biologically most families follow this tendency.

    Wouldn't call it sexist, just natural.

    Biblically the husband is to love his wife like Christ loves the Church or in other words sacrifice everything for her, up to and including his very life.

    Keep in mind we are only talking about husbands, wives, family which is what the verses are talking about.
     

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