I am a good person and I don't need a god for that

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Interaktive, Apr 1, 2023.

  1. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I asked you before; what is the source for solar light? It may be an energy but it depends on matter to exist.

    Yes, if you're going to refer to matter, as you did, then it consists of elements found on the periodic table. Thus I asked you to identify this matter, you said always existed in some form, on the table. You couldn't, so the logical conclusion is such matter doesn't exist.
     
  2. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Again, I made no argument about the cause, you did.
    “I'm making the claim that all things that exist in OUR universe has a cause for its existence.” Okay. And the cause is….”The religious word for this universe is ‘the supernatural’. A sphere of existence outside the sphere of ‘the natural’ world which by its very nature must surpass ours if what exists within can cause a universe such as ours to exist.”

    So you are going with Thor’s chariot causes thunder explanation, which is where we are in our understanding of the universe.
     
  3. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Is a proton matter or not? Keep in mind it has mass, is a particle, and isn't on the periodic table. Everything on the periodic table is matter, but not all matter is on the periodic table. The periodic table is meant to define ELEMENTS.
     
  4. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Name one type of matter that doesn't have elements.
     
  5. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Already done. Protons.
     
  6. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then you might want to reconsider how you define matter.

    http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.... to be a,so it is not considered to be matter.
     
  7. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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  8. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My mistake. Still it's part of an existing element which means it is not uncaused.
     
  9. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Protons aren't made of elements. I answered your question. And, once again, your position requires that we reject relativity and directly observed time dilation.
     
  10. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes this place amazes me. 27 days ago this was posted:

    I am a good person and I don't need a god for that
    do you agree
    God did not privatize morality, ethics, humanism
    moreover, there are at least three books on religious goodness, and it is not clear which one to read
    Bible, Koran, Gita"

    Now we have 16 pages, and 384 posts. What was there to discuss all that time,about such a simple pretty self evident non controversial little post, unless we actually know its author not to be a good person from experience? He does not even claim to be a great person, or a saintly person, just a run-of-the mill good person.

    I think I am a good person who does not need god for that too. Maybe we should bring signed affadivits from our loved ones, co-workers etc to submit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2023
  11. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did I say they were?
     
  12. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    "Name one type of matter that doesn't have elements." I did so. And, again, why do you reject the science on time dilation?
     
  13. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Matter consists of elements which consists of protons and electrons.

    This will be the last time I address this since someone else has pointed out how off track this thread has become. You can have the last word (which you usually get anyways).
     
  14. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    And neutrons. But now you are going back to claiming that protons aren't matter. Protons are matter. Just as when you engage in denial of relativity, physics is against you.

    Cool.
     
  15. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    When are these discussions ever on topic?
     
  16. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obviously people can be good without believing in God. The question is whether God has nothing whatsoever to do with it. And by that I mean you would have to test it with just two isolated people growing up together to see how well they get along. Would they figure out how to get along to survive or end up killing the other for the limited food or water they might have available? Morals, imo, are mostly taught. At least in an existing society. If they are intrinsic, you'll have to explain why every human being doesn't have the exact same moral values.
     
  17. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some deviations are acceptable, but when it's pointed out you should respect that someone would like to get back on track.
     
  18. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I find it a bit of humor that those who suggest a God as the primal cause for the Universe; a God that is eternal with no cause for God’s existence object to the idea the Universe has always existed.
    The notion something can’t come from nothing rests not on logic, but on the definition of nothing. Particles can and do appear spontaneously. That phenomena runs counter to human common sense, evolved on the plains of Africa, but so does the nature of Quantum Physics., yet humans have created technology that allows us to probe the both the very large and the small, things we can’t directly observe with our human senses.
    There are several speculative models that have been proposed for the beginnings of our universe, none of which are universally accepted in the scientific Community.two thoughts I have liked, Hawkings when talking of innings discussing beginnings, suggested it may be a meaningless question, akin to asking what iNorth of the North pole and DeGrass's statement; the universe is under no obligation to be as you would like it to be.It's hard for many to Liv e unanswered questions, so turning to a religion that explains 'the beginning, right or wrong, is appealing; but which religion? As a scientist, I live with unanswered questions, and strive yo incrementally pose questions in a manner that tests can be conceptualized to provide provisional answers to questions, advancing understanding. But, with answering questions I find each answer seems to increase my awareness of more things I don't know, adding to the questions I have. But then, a big question I have is What are the questions we don't know yet to ask?...my ignorance makes for ann interesting life for so so,eone so driven by curiosity.
    There are a lot of brilliant thinkers out there. None have all the answers, but I have to see a religion that I am willing to adopt. Given what I have thus far learned two things are clear to my, most of what I know is provisional, subect to change as I learn more and the Idea of an all powerful creator that keeps track of all I do, mesured against some suppised God made rules is not a model that appears likely to me.
     
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  19. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that that follows. Most every person has fingerprints, blood and a voicebox. Although they will alter, rejuvenate those cells until none of the original remains many times over, they are still completely distinguishable from every other. They follow a pattern that society did not teach.
     
  20. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can't arbitrarily change you fingerprints, blood or viocebox. Those are physical. Morality can and does change usually through the influences of other people or circumstances/or both.
     
  21. Green Man

    Green Man Banned

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    I gotta disagree. Morality is as fixed as the laws of motion. -"Do not do to others that which you would not have them do to you"-

    The way I see it all actions including inaction have consequences. There can be either, and only, positive or negative consequences or, most often, a combination of the two. Any action that causes material harm to another sentient being is wrong. Material harm is always some manner of theft- murder is theft of life, coersion is theft of free will, fraud is theft of the right to be told the truth. Emotions, as inflicted upon each other as they may or may not be, do not constitute material harm.
     
  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    You just provided an entirely SECULAR basis for morality that doesn't require God at all. Plus the Bible routinely has God violate this standard and order his followers to do so. Sounds like the secular standard is superior, even by your own estimation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2023
  23. Green Man

    Green Man Banned

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    Okay, then prove my explanation correct without using any reference to faith. You could not name any secular reason for your faith that murder is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2023
  24. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    You’ve never met my sister-in-law.

    She is a person who constantly puts me in situations where there is no option that is not wrong and I am left trying to figure out what I can do that is the least wrong.
     
  25. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    You just made your moral statement without any reference to faith. Everything you just said was purely secular. Why are you now changing your mind?

    Let's try this: The way I see it all actions including inaction have consequences. There can be either, and only, positive or negative consequences or, most often, a combination of the two. Any action that causes material harm to another sentient being is wrong. Material harm is always some manner of theft- murder is theft of life, coersion is theft of free will, fraud is theft of the right to be told the truth. Emotions, as inflicted upon each other as they may or may not be, do not constitute material harm.

    Why do you disagree?
     

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